Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Philippians 3:3; Colossians 2:11; Romans 2:29b ~ For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. You were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

 

[Rufus]

Philippians 3:3; Colossians 2:11; Romans 2:29b ~ For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. You were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

And, yet, there are plenty here who do put a great deal of confidence in their flesh! For while these naturally born God haters were dead in their sins, they rose from their graves to believe in Christ. So POWERFUL is their flesh...it rivals God's power!

 

[GWH]

I once was blind, yes. Praise God, He opened my eyes. You have a thread going about music, and one of my earliest
modern praise and worship songs addressed the issue very nicely, I still love that song by Matt Maher. It told my story...
I did not decide to believe. God punctured my unbelief many times with revelations of Himself, which some free willers
here will mock because it seems they have not experienced God. They say such experiences make God unfair. But, if
God had not kept His promise to reveal Himself, I doubt I would have ever become a believer.

Why did God force you to believe?

 

[GWH]

So now you're saying that the Good Samaritan didn't love God? It seems to me that the Good Samaritan is actually MORE righteous and loving than God since he actually and effectively rescued a helpless human being. The Samaritan just didn't toss the half-dead Jew a lifeline and tell him all he has to do is grab onto it. He didn't merely supply him an opportunity to save himself. The Good Samaritan actually performed a good work from start to finish; whereas your god just sits passively on the sideline sweating bullets and wringing his hands hoping that people will respond to his offer of salvation.

Moreover, your god is a hypocrite since he does not work efficaciously in people's lives to free them from the bondage of sin, the law, the world and the devil. God's a hypocrite because He requires his people to do the very thing that you say God cannot do because a fascist dictator and power-hungry monster.

James 2:12-18
12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by [effectual] action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do
NIV

Funny...how this works, isn't it? God requires that his people put their love for him and others into real positive, effectual action -- the very thing you FWs insist God cannot or would never do! Your god is the kind who would have led the ancient Jews to the Red Sea and then would have sat by passively watching the Egyptians bear down hard on his people. Your god would have told the Hebrews, "Hey look; I have brought you this far, now all you've got to do is your part to save yourself from Pharaoh and his army".

BTW, how are you doing with all those OT passages that don't teach that God loves all men w/o exception?

I thought I said the Good Samaritan loved his neighbor because he loved God.

 

[Rufus]

I thought I said the Good Samaritan loved his neighbor because he loved God.

Oh...that's what you meant to say, was it? So...how do naturally born God-haters transform their own hearts to love God?

And why is the Good Samaritan more righteous and loving than the God he loves?

 

[Magenta]

Why did God force you to believe?

Wow. You and your pretensions to understanding.

Surely you will blame me for this misunderstanding of yours just as you continue to do the other.

And this is exactly why I had you blocked for so long. You are a hater.

Too many like you lack spiritual discernment.

This is why you ascribe to the natural man qualities and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man.

Perhaps you are to be pitied.

 

[Rufus]

Why did God force you to believe?

Is that how you view all of Christ's miracles? When he opened the eyes of the blind, that dastardly, mean-spirited Christ FORCED the blind to see. Did Christ ever open the eyes of anyone blind who wasn't HELPLESSLY blind? Or did Christ open the eyes of those who he knew would "cooperate" with his miracle -- actively participate in his miracle?

 

[Magenta]

Is that how you view all of Christ's miracles? When he opened the eyes of the blind, that dastardly, mean-spirited Christ FORCED the blind to see. Did Christ ever open the eyes of anyone blind who wasn't HELPLESSLY blind? Or did Christ open the eyes of those who he knew would "cooperate" with his miracle -- actively participate in his miracle?

Next we will have a lecture on how God forced Paul to believe, and how God forced Moses to believe, and how God forced Job and Jonah to believe. I am not really interested in their hateful interpretations of what is said. I have plainly stated that I discovered I needed no more convincing of the Truth of God's revealed written Word and yet they interpret that to mean I was forced. The lack of honesty I must assume to be part and parcel of their lack of spiritual discernment. The number of cookie-cutter so-called Christians here add up over time. They have no appreciation for anyone else's spiritual journey in light of their belief that they were born equipped to do the very things the Bible says they cannot without God doing His work in them. They only care in trying to force others to accept that they freely chose to believe something which Scripture plainly states they could neither receive nor comprehend while captive to the will of the devil.

 

[PaulThomson]

A very large portion of Ezekiel is devoted to God's promise to return the Jews the promised land from which they were exiled. Physical resurrection has nothing to do with the promised land; for the resurrection takes place on the last day of this age at which time the new heavens and new earth will be created and all the resurrected redeemed will dwell on the new earth. The resurrected righteous will not be dwelling in the land of Israel. You are conveniently ignoring the context of Ezek 36-37 because you don't like the theological implications to what the prophet is saying!

You are wrong. The first resurrection, which ushers in the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ and His saints on this present earth, has to do with God's true Israel being extracted out by the earth planet-wide, and returning to the land that had in the previous 6000 years bereaved the nations

Ez. 36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

13 Thus saith the Lord God; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:

14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord God.

15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord God.

This is about the 1000 year reign occupation of the land by the resurrected saints. Verse 12 says people will stop dying in the land of Israel. This did not happen when the Jews returned from Babylon. This will happen during the 1000 year reign." Everything said in Ez. 36 is true of the Resurrected Israel during the 1000 year reign. Some aspects of the return from Babylon might appear to have partially fulfilled Ez. 36, but the return from Babylon does not fufill all the things prophesied. You are selecting the things that were fulfilled, and are skipping over the parts that do not, pretending that the entire chapter perfectly fits and is certainly about the return from the Babylonian captivity.

Based on your false claim that Ez. 36 is certainly about the return from Babylon, you then staple Ez. 37:1-14 to chapter 36, as if it is a continuation of that prophecy and is also not about the resurrection. It is a different prophesy, which clarifies to the Jews how chapter36 will be brought about. How will the land ofIsrael be repopulated with immortal exiles? By the Holy Spirit raising them out of the ground at the resurrection and transporting them to the land of Israel as delimited in Ez. 47:13-23.

 

[Rufus]

Ex 31:1-7
31:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 "See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts — 4 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 5 to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship. 6 Moreover, I have appointed Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, to help him. Also I have given skill to all the craftsmen to make everything I have commanded you: 7 the Tent of Meeting, the ark of the Testimony with the atonement cover on it, and all the other furnishings of the tent —
NIV

Mr. PT claimed synergism is taught throughout the bible, which is a lie. Those of us of the Reformed Tradition have always recognized and acknowledged that God calls his people to actually SERVE him in all kinds of different capacities. We have long recognized that God ordains not only his ends but the means to those ends, as well. Monogerism has nothing to do with the faith of believing servants. But it has everything to do with helpless DEAD, DEAF and BLIND unbelievers who cannot help themselves.

The above passage clearly teaches monogerism since God sovereignly appointed specific people to be highly gifted artistically. We can see from this passage that God acted UNILATERALLY! He did not seek the permission or cooperation of the people he sovereignly gifted to work on the Tent of Meeting and the Ark of the Testimony.

 

[PaulThomson]

There is one common theme among all satanic religions, they’re all of works, they all share a “synergistic soteriology”.

Could you please elaborate on this. It is a rather cryptic statement. Satanism claims that what one does, whether good of evil, carries no life or death consequences beyond death. That is not synergism.
But it does sound a lot like what UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION claims for those designated as "the elect".

 

[Magenta]

Lotta stuff about being forced... or not forced. Where in the world does that come from?

We are drawn with loving kindness.

God promises to change our heart so that we may love Him and some of these nay-sayers call that being
forced. At every turn they try to project their ignorance onto us. The problem too is that they make the
natural man equal to Christ in His ability to lay aside His human will to submit to the will of the Father.

No mention ever from them of the natural man, being a slave to sin, lover of darkness, captive to the will of
the devil, none being righteous, blinded by the god of this world, the gospel being foolishness, like anyone
is just gonna up and accept the what they see as foolishness to be God's own truth without the intervention of
God Himself... gosh it goes on and on what gets ignored. Jesus came to open our eyes and ears and set us free.

Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.
God's Word says the natural man cannot submit to God's law. God's Word says that we are enabled, which they characterize as being forced, and those given to Christ will come to Him. Perhaps they would call that a violation of their free will also. That is where some of the disagreement is, because quite a few here say the natural man can decide (using their free will) to obey God while the Bible says otherwise. The Bible says we believe with our heart and that the natural man has a stony heart, is a slave to sin, taken captive to the will of the devil, a lover of darkness suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, hostile to God. That is the person they have choosing to believe in and love God, and submitting to Him when the Bible says they are incapable. They kick up quite a fuss over this, telling lots of lies about what we believe simply because we affirm what Scripture says: The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. Then they say the man controlled by the flesh is other than what Scripture says, though Scripture plainly and sharply contrasts him against the person within whom the Spirit of God lives. They confuse the two and claim the one is capable of doing what only the other can because they almost completely ignore and absolutely deny what the Bible says of the natural man.

 

[Magenta]

Matthew 7:17-18, Luke 6:4a and from John 15:4-5 ~ Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from Me you can do nothing.

 

[Magenta]

From: John 8:34; 2 Peter 2:19a; Galatians 4:8; Romans 7:14; Ephesians 2:3b; Romans 6:6 ~ “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.” They are slaves of corruption. When you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. You were of the flesh, sold under sin. We were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Our old self was crucified so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 9:18; John 6:44; John 6:65; John 6:37; John 6:63; Titus 3:5 ~ God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. He saved us because of His mercy, through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

 

[PaulThomson]

Ex 31:1-7
31:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, 2 "See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts — 4 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 5 to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship. 6 Moreover, I have appointed Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, to help him. Also I have given skill to all the craftsmen to make everything I have commanded you: 7 the Tent of Meeting, the ark of the Testimony with the atonement cover on it, and all the other furnishings of the tent —
NIV

Mr. PT claimed synergism is taught throughout the bible, which is a lie. Those of us of the Reformed Tradition have always recognized and acknowledged that God calls his people to actually SERVE him in all kinds of different capacities. We have long recognized that God ordains not only his ends but the means to those ends, as well. Monogerism has nothing to do with the faith of believing servants. But it has everything to do with helpless DEAD, DEAF and BLIND unbelievers who cannot help themselves.

The above passage clearly teaches monogerism since God sovereignly appointed specific people to be highly gifted artistically. We can see from this passage that God acted UNILATERALLY! He did not seek the permission or cooperation of the people he sovereignly gifted to work on the Tent of Meeting and the Ark of the Testimony.

I do not see in that passage where Moses says that Bezaleel and Oholiab were not consenting to be used in this way and their work on the tabernacle was monergistically achieved. Synergism does not deny that God can give skills to particular people He chooses, for them to use working together with God to achieve His will..

You have not presented a text here that proves monergism as you assert it.

PS. I did not say "synergism is taught throughout the bible".

 

[Magenta]

Romans 16:16, Titus 3:3, John 8:34 ~ Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, misled, and enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures. Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son belongs to it forever.”

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8:7a, Galatians 5:17, John 1:5, John 14:17 ~ The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. Darkness does not comprehend the Light. The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.
Free willers do not believe this. They believe the person within whom the Holy Spirit does not yet dwell can,
while being 100 percent of the flesh, can simply choose to believe in that which he is inherently hostile in
his mind to. In their theology, which is contrary to what Scripture actually teaches, it is only after their flesh
chooses that which they are wholly opposed to does the Spirit of God indwell them.

 

[Mem]

100 percent of the flesh

This is an assumption of man's makeup. There is only ONE with the capability to extinguish any one entirely, both body and soul, and that will be done via the lake of via.

I'm off to work. Meanwhile, I'll have to think up a designation to distinguish other willers from "free willers", since it seems that "Calvinists" has developed into such an objectionable designation.

 

[GWH]

Oh...that's what you meant to say, was it? So...how do naturally born God-haters transform their own hearts to love God?

And why is the Good Samaritan more righteous and loving than the God he loves?

By experiencing enough of life--especially misery--to realize their need for God (cf. the Prodigal Son)
and then by exercising the volition He provides every morally accountable soul to ask/seek/knock
and find God/GW/Christ. (MT 7:7) Yay! PTL!
(Let's have some wine--and bread! :^)