The rapture is close?

[tharkun]

Recall that the INSTRUCTION Jesus gave (to "FLEE") was specifically "to them which be IN JUDAEA" (not to Israel all over the world, FROM WHERE they will be "gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel" [into ONE PLACE upon the earth: "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM") gathered [from having been "judicially SCATTERED"] by angels "HE SHALL SEND" to do so, per Matthew 24:29-31 [END OF TRIB / AFTER TRIB] parallel Isaiah 27:9,12-13 at the "GREAT trumpet" [distinct] See also Rom11:27/Dan9:24 [re: Israel]--This is NOT a "rapture/SNATCH [G726]")

The gathering of the elect in Matt 24 is the rapture and it fits in exactly where I've indicated: AoD -> triple sign -> DotL (rapture is the first event of the DotL) at the last trump that is blown by God (not an angel), Zech 9:14:

14 Then the LORD will appear over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning; And the Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, And will march in the storm winds of the south.

The gathering of believers is to the sky per Jesus and Paul; the gathering of Israel is out of hiding to Mt Zion - two different gatherings.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The gathering of the elect in Matt 24 is the rapture and it fits in exactly where I've indicated: AoD -> triple sign -> DotL (rapture is the first event of the DotL)

Jesus, in His Olivet Discourse, is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture / SNATCH [G726]"; He is responding to questions... and verse 3 that the disciples asked Him was BASED ON what He had ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (re: the END [singular] of the AGE [singular]" when the angels will REAP--and "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [v.24] which IS the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, aka "the age [singular] to come" He had just spoken of in 12:32 the previous chpt).

He addressed the 70ad events in v.2 (parallel MK13:2, and Lk21:6, as well as in Lk21:12-24a,b [with c "continuing on, from there], including 70ad's OWN [distinct] "SEE-then-FLEE" event[!] [Lk21:20,23]--as well as in Matt22:7 "burned up their city" and Lk19:42-44 which words Jesus spoke ON THE VERY DAY that the "69 Weeks" were concluded: Palm Sunday [pertaining to "the city / Jerusalem" [Dan9:24's TIME-prophecy]);

Other than that (in His Olivet Discourse), everything else FOLLOWS ON from "the beginning of birth PANGS" which "kick off" the [future] 70th Week / 7-yr period / "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; Rv1:1] time-period (and ARE "the SEALS") which time-period immediately precedes and LEADS UP TO His Second Coming to the earth Rev19, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age [Mt13:24's "kingdom OF THE heavenS" Subject, and their LATER Q of Him in Matt24:3, and His RESPONSE in two chpts [24-25]).



Up to [/up until] and INCLUDING Jesus' Olivet Discourse, He had NOT YET spoken to them anywhere about [the concept of] "RAPTURE / SNATCH".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In fact, the 1st rider is not described as deceiving at all, just conquering.

The same Grk word is used later in, in Rev13:7 (not to mention in 11:7), translated in both of these [LATER--time-wise] contexts as "[and] shall overcome [them]" / "to overcome [them]" (what he does LATER, in the SECOND HALF), i.e. negative stuff;

and besides, I pointed out how the word "BOW" often means "DECEPTION"... and this is what Paul points out about his / this person's "WHOSE COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL" (at the START of the "7-yr period") is like (DECEPTION, see the 2Th2 text spelling this point out). That is when he is "REVEALED" (3x this SEQUENCE is stated by Paul in 2Th2), that's not LATER when he does the "WHO SITTETH" thing at MID-trib, per v.4b. NO! That is not when he is "revealed".

And to be consistent, if the 1st horseman is a literal person, to be consistent in your exegesis, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th riders must be literal people also. Is that what you believe?

The fourth rider, the text states that his name is "DEATH".

That doesn't mean the first rider can't be "antichrist [/pseudo-christ]" (or "man of sin" or "son of perdition" etc...)

Again, "bow" often means "deception"... and Paul said the FIRST "BIRTH PANG [SINGULAR]" is "exactly like" how "THE DOTL" will ARRIVE, and Jesus SAID the FIRST OF THOSE is "[beware of] A CERTAIN ONE [G5100]" ...that is, "A CERTAIN ONE" bringing deception! ("FOR *many will come, saying..." [throughout history] but Jesus is pointing out "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis]" to beware of, to them... because HE WILL BE THE GUY [i.e. the real antichrist of that future time-period Jesus is covering in this part of His Olivet Discourse]); Bottom line, "the DOTL" STARTS well-before the point in time you are suggesting (as do many others).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The fourth rider, the text states that his name is "DEATH".

That doesn't mean the first rider can't be "antichrist [/pseudo-christ]" (or "man of sin" or "son of perdition" etc...)

Jesus is the one OPENING the Seals (when He will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6); and JUST LIKE God USED the Chaldeans/Babylonians "FOR JUDGMENT [to execute JUDGMENT]" per Hab1:12, He can use whatever "instruments" He chooses. (re: who or what the riders of the horses are, in the Seals [START of Trib yrs / DOTL]).



[as I've pointed out in many past threads, 2Th2:7b-8a is SIMILAR LANGUAGE to that of Lam2:3]

 

[tharkun]

The same Grk word is used later in, in Rev13:7 (not to mention in 11:7), translated in both of these [LATER--time-wise] contexts as "[and] shall overcome [them]" / "to overcome [them]" (what he does LATER, in the SECOND HALF), i.e. negative stuff;

This again referes to the GT, but does not indicate that the GT is the full 3.5 yrs long.

and besides, I pointed out how the word "BOW" often means "DECEPTION"... and this is what Paul points out about his / this person's "WHOSE COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL" (at the START of the "7-yr period") is like (DECEPTION, see the 2Th2 text spelling this point out). That is when he is "REVEALED" (3x this SEQUENCE is stated by Paul in 2Th2), that's not LATER when he does the "WHO SITTETH" thing at MID-trib, per v.4b. NO! That is not when he is "revealed".

The revelaing of the AC mirrors the revealing of Christ in Revelation - it is not the revealing of his identity, it is the revealing of his character. The AoD is how he does this.

The fourth rider, the text states that his name is "DEATH".
That doesn't mean the first rider can't be "antichrist [/pseudo-christ]" (or "man of sin" or "son of perdition" etc...)

This is special pleading and an inconsistent hermeneutic then.

Again, "bow" often means "deception"... and Paul said the FIRST "BIRTH PANG [SINGULAR]" is "exactly like" how "THE DOTL" will ARRIVE, and Jesus SAID the FIRST OF THOSE is "[beware of] A CERTAIN ONE [G5100]" ...that is, "A CERTAIN ONE" bringing deception! ("FOR *many will come, saying..." [throughout history] but Jesus is pointing out "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis]" to beware of, to them... because HE WILL BE THE GUY [i.e. the real antichrist of that future time-period Jesus is covering in this part of His Olivet Discourse]); Bottom line, "the DOTL" STARTS well-before the point in time you are suggesting (as do many others).

Can you scripturally back up bow = deception? I've never seen any scritpure that does such.
The DoTL cannot start before the time I'm suggeting as proven by the timing of the triple sign that precedes the DotL (i.e. AFTER the AoD and AFTER the GT, per Joel 2 and Matt 24.). You still have not addressed how you get around this explicit sequence in scripture.

 

[tharkun]

Jesus is the one OPENING the Seals (when He will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6); and JUST LIKE God USED the Chaldeans/Babylonians "FOR JUDGMENT [to execute JUDGMENT]" per Hab1:12, He can use whatever "instruments" He chooses. (re: who or what the riders of the horses are, in the Seals [START of Trib yrs / DOTL]).

[as I've pointed out in many past threads, 2Th2:7b-8a is SIMILAR LANGUAGE to that of Lam2:3]

I agree that Jesus is the one opening the seals; I have no issue with that. But the 6th seal aligns with the triple sign spoken of in Joel 2 and Matt 24. Therefore, the first 6 seals are not a part of the DotL either.

 

[Johnjunior]

--1Cor15:22b's "FUTURE TENSE" Subject ("so also *IN* Christ" SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE [FUTURE TENSE]") is CONNECTED to what FOLLOWS in the text (v.23) by the "BUT [CONJUNCTION]"--"But each IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK" (EVERYTHING in verse 23 pertains to this "FUTURE TENSE" resurrection--*IN Christ SHALL all BE MADE ALIVE" [be resurrected--speaking of saved persons]--It isn't reaching back to that which verse 20 had ALREADY covered [i.e. Jesus' OWN resurrection]");

I responded to this already but you seem dead set on interpreting what Paul is saying. Paul said everyman in his own order and then he TOLD you the order. The order is this
1. Jesus Christ (the first Fuits)
2. Everyone else at his coming.
Literally says it in the text how are you getting phases out of that statement? If one precept is not saying what you are saying get another because it is written out 2 or more witnesses is a fact establish.

1 Corinthians 15: 51 - 52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The dead gets change at the LAST trump but that's for the Saints everyone else comes up at judgement day (white throne judgement) I showed all this through Revelation already.

--Paul's use of the TWO distinct words (in vv.23 and 24a), "EPeita" (v.23) and "EITA" (v.24a); the LATTER of these (in the phrase "THEN [EITA]" the end" v.24a (note: the word "coming" is not in the text), this "EITA [THEN]" word is "a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with NO time-element attached to it" [this is KEY, and good reason to understand the DISTINCTION between "EPeita" and "EITA" that Paul is using here!])..

I have absolutely no idea what that means. You are not trying to teach you are trying to spoil. What language is that??

-the "2W' are resurrected (and ascend up to heaven) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe," at a time-slot DISTINCT from when all others will be--One should be prepared to explain WHY that is, rather than to IMPOSE INTO the text the incorrect idea that they are resurrected at the "7th trumpet / 3rd Woe," when the TEXT ITSELF tells us that HASN'T YET OCCURED at the time they were resurrected and ascended (Rev11:14); I believe this passage is written explicitly this way to ANSWER THIS QUESTION / MATTER purposely;

The two witnesses are the individuals that the LORD will have in opposition to the beast and the false prophets. The LORD starts his descent immediately at the 7th trumpet but before the 7th trumpet is blown men on Earth will be able to see GOD as he is dropping in punishment on this Earth. The LORD is in fact beginning his descent at the 7th so obviously the witnesses will meet him in the air. This is why Paul said we will be CAUGHT UP WITH THEM. Why? Because the Saints will meet Christ 1st and then the living Saints will also go up and meet Jesus. Essentially all the Saints are meeting the LORD in the air around the same time. It still essentially boils down to two solid resurrections, the Saints after the great tribulation and then everyone else after.

There is zero situation when anyone else will be resurrected. The people who came back alive when Jesus resurrected from the dead died again. That's why Christ is the first fruits from the dead. He is not the first one who died and resurrect again, he is the first one who died and resurrect again as a spirit being. All the people who the prophets raised from the dead died again.

 

[Johnjunior]

You posted 2 separate comings.
Acts 1 setting is exactly opposite of a post tribulation appearing of Jesus.
When Jesus was taken up, in Acts 1, the setting was exactly opposite of what you are asserting

Acts 1 was Jesus coming it was Jesus ascending into heaven if you re-read my post you will see the point I am making is that Jesus feet needs to touch the place where he last left when he comes again. So unless someone shows me a scripture where Jesus goes back to Heaven after his feet touch the mount of Olives when he comes then the doctrine of going to heaven will always remain a lie.

The Rapture is the gathering of the bride. it is vividly depicted in Matthew 25, the parable of the virgins.
it is impossible to miss, and yes there is a devil ,and he definitely hates the bride. Jesus loves the bride and he is coming for her.
Jesus said his coming (Rapture) is pretrib. ( second coming to earth is postrib/wrath as vividly depicted in Revelation 19)
That is Jesus words.
Why do saints seek to change it?

So you're theory is way way off.

I don't do theory I deal with what's written in the book.

You're the one talking with no scripture. If you're a servant of Christ and you're trying to tell me I am wrong, shouldn't you do what Christ did and say it is written? People are constantly telling me I am wrong because they are holding onto what is taught in church rather than what's written in this bible.

GOD made 7 promises in Revelation and not one is Heaven. It's strange how man have this obsession of going to heaven and cannot find a single place where it is written in bible. Then again Christmas ain't in the bible and people do it and Rapture is not in the bible (neither the word or concept) and yet people believe it.

The marriage of the lamb will take place however that event occurs on Earth not in heaven. I already posted a script where Jesus said ALL FLESH shall come before him. Ain't no flesh going to ascend into heaven, spirit beings and man will be on this Earth in the LORD's kingdom. The father's kingdom comes after the white throne judgement. All of this is pure book not theology or opinions.

 

[Psalm1]

Acts 1 was Jesus coming it was Jesus ascending into heaven if you re-read my post you will see the point I am making is that Jesus feet needs to touch the place where he last left when he comes again. So unless someone shows me a scripture where Jesus goes back to Heaven after his feet touch the mount of Olives when he comes then the doctrine of going to heaven will always remain a lie.

I don't do theory I deal with what's written in the book.

You're the one talking with no scripture. If you're a servant of Christ and you're trying to tell me I am wrong, shouldn't you do what Christ did and say it is written? People are constantly telling me I am wrong because they are holding onto what is taught in church rather than what's written in this bible.

GOD made 7 promises in Revelation and not one is Heaven. It's strange how man have this obsession of going to heaven and cannot find a single place where it is written in bible. Then again Christmas ain't in the bible and people do it and Rapture is not in the bible (neither the word or concept) and yet people believe it.

The marriage of the lamb will take place however that event occurs on Earth not in heaven. I already posted a script where Jesus said ALL FLESH shall come before him. Ain't no flesh going to ascend into heaven, spirit beings and man will be on this Earth in the LORD's kingdom. The father's kingdom comes after the white throne judgement. All of this is pure book not theology or opinions.

You reframed acts 1

Jesus was in the air. "Like manner"
No great trib under him..."like manner "
No white horses as in the second coming to earth " like manner"
No warrior king on a mission to kill the ac..."like manner"

If you read it like it says, it is opposite of your spin
"Like manner" is that EXACT picture of the angels looking up with the disciples.
No feet on ground.
You added that.


You said " unless someone shows me a scripture"

Ahem...you were
You changed the scripture.

 

[Psalm1]

A person I was trying to help said that God audibly said to him he is coming back, this person wanted to know how to get him to speak audibly to him again because he had questions but I know this person is genuine.
personally I don't have any particular stance on the timing of the rapture I just keep myself prepared for any outcome

God has spoken to me many many times.
Never audibly.
It is rare for God to do so.

 

[Blain]

God has spoken to me many many times.
Never audibly.
It is rare for God to do so.

he has only spoken to me audibly once

 

[Psalm1]

Acts 1 was Jesus coming it was Jesus ascending into heaven if you re-read my post you will see the point I am making is that Jesus feet needs to touch the place where he last left when he comes again. So unless someone shows me a scripture where Jesus goes back to Heaven after his feet touch the mount of Olives when he comes then the doctrine of going to heaven will always remain a lie.

I don't do theory I deal with what's written in the book.

You're the one talking with no scripture. If you're a servant of Christ and you're trying to tell me I am wrong, shouldn't you do what Christ did and say it is written? People are constantly telling me I am wrong because they are holding onto what is taught in church rather than what's written in this bible.

GOD made 7 promises in Revelation and not one is Heaven. It's strange how man have this obsession of going to heaven and cannot find a single place where it is written in bible. Then again Christmas ain't in the bible and people do it and Rapture is not in the bible (neither the word or concept) and yet people believe it.

The marriage of the lamb will take place however that event occurs on Earth not in heaven. I already posted a script where Jesus said ALL FLESH shall come before him. Ain't no flesh going to ascend into heaven, spirit beings and man will be on this Earth in the LORD's kingdom. The father's kingdom comes after the white throne judgement. All of this is pure book not theology or opinions.

No
The marriage is in heaven.
The parable of the virgins, the last supper dialogue, and Rev 19 all point to the marriage in heaven.

All parables of the wedding have it at the father's house.

That is pure book, not what you have been taught.

 

[Psalm1]

he has only spoken to me audibly once

You are a blessed man!

 

[Blain]

You are a blessed man!

Yes I suppose I am, his voice was a commanding booming thunder your body just moves and obeys on it's own. he truly is a mighty God

 

[Psalm1]

I responded to this already but you seem dead set on interpreting what Paul is saying. Paul said everyman in his own order and then he TOLD you the order. The order is this
1. Jesus Christ (the first Fuits)
2. Everyone else at his coming.
Literally says it in the text how are you getting phases out of that statement? If one precept is not saying what you are saying get another because it is written out 2 or more witnesses is a fact establish.

1 Corinthians 15: 51 - 52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The dead gets change at the LAST trump but that's for the Saints everyone else comes up at judgement day (white throne judgement) I showed all this through Revelation already.

I have absolutely no idea what that means. You are not trying to teach you are trying to spoil. What language is that??


The two witnesses are the individuals that the LORD will have in opposition to the beast and the false prophets. The LORD starts his descent immediately at the 7th trumpet but before the 7th trumpet is blown men on Earth will be able to see GOD as he is dropping in punishment on this Earth. The LORD is in fact beginning his descent at the 7th so obviously the witnesses will meet him in the air. This is why Paul said we will be CAUGHT UP WITH THEM. Why? Because the Saints will meet Christ 1st and then the living Saints will also go up and meet Jesus. Essentially all the Saints are meeting the LORD in the air around the same time. It still essentially boils down to two solid resurrections, the Saints after the great tribulation and then everyone else after.

There is zero situation when anyone else will be resurrected. The people who came back alive when Jesus resurrected from the dead died again. That's why Christ is the first fruits from the dead. He is not the first one who died and resurrect again, he is the first one who died and resurrect again as a spirit being. All the people who the prophets raised from the dead died again.

QUOTE, " The people who came back alive when Jesus resurrected from the dead died again."

Nope
That is definitely false.
You literally made that up.

 

[Psalm1]

This again referes to the GT, but does not indicate that the GT is the full 3.5 yrs long.



The revelaing of the AC mirrors the revealing of Christ in Revelation - it is not the revealing of his identity, it is the revealing of his character. The AoD is how he does this.



This is special pleading and an inconsistent hermeneutic then.



Can you scripturally back up bow = deception? I've never seen any scritpure that does such.
The DoTL cannot start before the time I'm suggeting as proven by the timing of the triple sign that precedes the DotL (i.e. AFTER the AoD and AFTER the GT, per Joel 2 and Matt 24.). You still have not addressed how you get around this explicit sequence in scripture.

"Bow" is an instrument of death.
He kills all the saints left behind as is vividly declared in Rev.
He is a killer.
He is satan possessed and controlled.

 

[Blain]

Acts 1 was Jesus coming it was Jesus ascending into heaven if you re-read my post you will see the point I am making is that Jesus feet needs to touch the place where he last left when he comes again. So unless someone shows me a scripture where Jesus goes back to Heaven after his feet touch the mount of Olives when he comes then the doctrine of going to heaven will always remain a lie.

I don't do theory I deal with what's written in the book.

You're the one talking with no scripture. If you're a servant of Christ and you're trying to tell me I am wrong, shouldn't you do what Christ did and say it is written? People are constantly telling me I am wrong because they are holding onto what is taught in church rather than what's written in this bible.

GOD made 7 promises in Revelation and not one is Heaven. It's strange how man have this obsession of going to heaven and cannot find a single place where it is written in bible. Then again Christmas ain't in the bible and people do it and Rapture is not in the bible (neither the word or concept) and yet people believe it.

The marriage of the lamb will take place however that event occurs on Earth not in heaven. I already posted a script where Jesus said ALL FLESH shall come before him. Ain't no flesh going to ascend into heaven, spirit beings and man will be on this Earth in the LORD's kingdom. The father's kingdom comes after the white throne judgement. All of this is pure book not theology or opinions.

If we are talking about no one ever going to heaven what about Elijah who was whisked away on chariots of fire?

 

[Psalm1]

The gathering of the elect in Matt 24 is the rapture and it fits in exactly where I've indicated: AoD -> triple sign -> DotL (rapture is the first event of the DotL) at the last trump that is blown by God (not an angel), Zech 9:14:

14 Then the LORD will appear over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning; And the Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, And will march in the storm winds of the south.

The gathering of believers is to the sky per Jesus and Paul; the gathering of Israel is out of hiding to Mt Zion - two different gatherings.

" last trump"
"Seventh trump"
"Dotl"

...Are not smoking guns that void, remove, or dilute the pretrib rapture verses.
Those verses will never go away.

 

[Blain]

"Bow" is an instrument of death.
He kills all the saints left behind as is vividly declared in Rev.
He is a killer.
He is satan possessed and controlled.

possessed and controlled like Judah when satan entered into him

 

[Psalm1]

The key word is MEET

When you meet up someone then the next question should be where we going from there? Remember the angel said Jesus will come again likewise so his feet needs to touch the mount of Olives.
Acts 1: 9 - 12
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Remember Jesus LEFT Heaven and the Saints rushed to meet him in the air but Jesus feet still needs to touch the mount of Olives and when he comes he coming with power as the LION of the tribe of Judah and he is making war with his Saints.

Zecahariah 14: 1 - 5, 9
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Where did GOD get all these Saints from? It's simple they met him in the air that you pointed out in 1 Thessalonians 4. Now we not done yet this is best part.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Man that's beautiful, that's we pray THY KINGDOM COME. Tired of these corrupt politicians, Earth will finally have the Saviour as our ruler. Praise the LORD. amen.

The second coming , according to Jesus, is not the rapture.