Understanding God’s election

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Would you agree with those who say that a person who does not choose Jesus when they becomes aware of Jesus, is choosing to reject Jesus? If not, why not?

Yes, but not necessarily a permanent choice. Like Saul/Paul, a person may become aware of Jesus long before they actually come to believe on Him.

Then why do you not also agree that God not choosing to save someone, when He is aware they are destined for hell, is Him choosing not to save them and to destine them to hell?

 

[DavidLamb]

PaulThomson said:
Would you agree with those who say that a person who does not choose Jesus when they becomes aware of Jesus, is choosing to reject Jesus? If not, why not?



Then why do you not also agree that God not choosing to save someone, when He is aware they are destined for hell, is Him choosing not to save them and to destine them to hell?

Because they make that choice themselves. If you ask why God chose some to be saved, we are not told, beyond what Paul writes in Romans 9:

“Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,” (Ro 9:18-23 NKJV)

 

[HeIsHere]

Doesn't change anything. Grace is supernatural regardless of the means.

Well unless you have changed and have come into agreement with God's word, you have maintained the initial act of faith is also supernatural.

 

[Cameron143]

Your conclusion is based on your presupposing irresistible grace, which is not a verified premise. Many of us do not believe in your irresistible grace. If grace is not irresistible, then your division of grace into common and salvific faith-bearing grace is artificial and arbitrary.

Where is your scriptural proof that the grace that a man accessed to believe unto salvation was only made available to him by God at the time he believed and was withheld from Him and never available to the man before then?

The proof is that he is saved. The proof that it wasn't extended at other times is that he wasn't saved.

Are you suggesting that if God extends grace through faith an individual will not be saved?

 

[Cameron143]

Well unless you have changed and have come into agreement with God's word, you have maintained the initial act of faith is also supernatural.

If the original grace is supernatural, the result of the grace is also supernatural.

 

[HeIsHere]

If the original grace is supernatural, the result of the grace is also supernatural.

Faith/belief comes first although the experience may seem simultaneous.
So you are still in the same place.
Oh well.

 

[Cameron143]

Faith/belief comes first although the experience may seem simultaneous.
So you are still in the same place.
Oh well.

According to Acts 2:37 your statement is false. They heard, were pricked, then responded.

 

[HeIsHere]

According to Acts 2:37 your statement is false. They heard, were pricked, then responded.

Been there done that.

 

[NOV25]

I find it a bit humorous when synergists use the various “double predestination” arguments against monergists, seems they forget the same issue applies to their soteriology as well.

In other words, the synergist must admit God creates every human knowing some will perish, ultimately creating some for destruction-unless they succumb to the universalism heresy lol

 

[Magenta]

Faith/belief comes first although the experience may seem simultaneous.
So you are still in the same place.
Oh well.

Whoa. Massive fail there, putting the cart before the horse. I wonder that you cannot
see how ridiculous it is for you to assert that your faith preceded God's grace.

 

[Cameron143]

Been there done that.

You should have gotten the t-shirt.

 

[HeIsHere]

You should have gotten the t-shirt.

Great idea!!

 

[PaulThomson]

The proof is that he is saved. The proof that it wasn't extended at other times is that he wasn't saved.

Are you suggesting that if God extends grace through faith an individual will not be saved?

If the person rejects God's gift offered in grace, they will not receive it... including salvation in grace through faith. A lot of people do not think irresistible grace is taught in scripture, and your assuming it to use as a plank in your theories will not persuade such people. You are begging the question there, which is another logical fallacy.

 

[PaulThomson]

I find it a bit humorous when synergists use the various “double predestination” arguments against monergists, seems they forget the same issue applies to their soteriology as well.

In other words, the synergist must admit God creates every human knowing some will perish, ultimately creating some for destruction-unless they succumb to the universalism heresy lol

Open theist don't have that problem. God created the process by which humans make babies, with God knowing that sufficient grace will be extended to all to make salvation possible for all, and knowing that some will choose to trust Him and some will choose not to trust Him, but not knowing, when they are conceived or born, which ones will be which.

 

[Magenta]

Great idea!!

You may have to design it yourself, as all the ones I have seen speak
of all glory belonging to God, not to the person who exercises faith.

Perhaps you could also work into the design your tightly held belief that it would
have been unfair of God to reveal Himself to you in ways that were personal to you.

Maybe on the backside you could broadcast your Pelagianism. You know, tell the whole world how
wonderful the natural man is, that the Bible is wrong about that guy being wicked, vile, corrupt and evil.

You could top it all off with something like: I was never a slave to sin!

 

[HeIsHere]

I find it a bit humorous when synergists use the various “double predestination” arguments against monergists, seems they forget the same issue applies to their soteriology as well.

In other words, the synergist must admit God creates every human knowing some will perish, ultimately creating some for destruction-unless they succumb to the universalism heresy lol

It is not synergy.
It is God's condition.

 

[PaulThomson]

Because they make that choice themselves. If you ask why God chose some to be saved, we are not told, beyond what Paul writes in Romans 9:

“Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,” (Ro 9:18-23 NKJV)

But you say that the only ones able to get saved are those to whom God deliberately and selectively choses to provide by grace the elements that enable salvation, and from the rest He deliberately and selectively withholds those necessary elements. So, they are not making the choice themselves. They have no ability to make a choice for salvation under your scheme, unless God graces them with that ability.

 

[Cameron143]

If the person rejects God's gift offered in grace, they will not receive it... including salvation in grace through faith. A lot of people do not think irresistible grace is taught in scripture, and your assuming it to use as a plank in your theories will not persuade such people. You are begging the question there, which is another logical fallacy.

You don't get it. Grace, when imparted, exists. One can enjoy it or curse it, but it is true that rain and sunshine are a universal grace of God. Salvation is not universal to mankind. Salvation comes by grace through faith. Where grace is imparted through faith, is there any other outcome but salvation?

 

[Magenta]

Addiction is connected to poor impulse control, self-medicating and over time other neurological changes.

Making it purely a "moral choice" just leads to feelings of failure and personal weakness.

Wow. Your lack of consistency should not surprise me. And yet...

We cannot "will" into effect our salvation.

You are all over the place.

But I get it. You eliminate everything the Bible has to say of the natural man. He is not a slave to sin.
No addiction there! He is not a lover of darkness. No addiction there! He is not defined as darkness
itself, incapable of comprehending the Light. No. Your guy simply wills himself to believe that which
is foolishness to him through an act of his will by making amoral choice/decision which you know
is a ridiculous proposition in other scenarios.

 

[rogerg]

Whoa. Massive fail there, putting the cart before the horse. I wonder that you cannot
see how ridiculous it is for you to assert that your faith preceded God's grace.

Their belief/trust, Magenta, is in themselves as Saviour rather than in Christ; scripture, however, makes clear beyond
dispute that Christ alone is the Savior. They would eliminate Christ from salvation making it solely between themselves and the Father based upon their actions and choices, which is patently false and goes directly against Christianity. Those who would make salvation of themselves rather than Christ, means they remain yet under the law and are blind.