Which works justify?

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Sep 29, 2024
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Or...you don't answer because your answer belies a lack of faith in God's provision in Christ. You can say all day that the blood of Christ is sufficient for your justification, but if you must continue in obedience to that justification, you do not believe the righteousness of Christ is enough. Your faith is not merely in Christ, but in Christ and your continued obedience.

Also, your continued conflation of obedience to faith has been acknowledged. No one here is saying that salvation doesn't produce obedience. What they are contending is that obedience is the result of salvation, and not its cause. In other words, one doesn't obey either to get saved or remain saved, but because we are saved. You are contending that our obedience is the source of our ongoing justification by God. It is not. God requires a perfect righteousness. One only possesses this if one is in Christ. It is His righteousness that preserves us and His blood that justifies us. Your best efforts at pleasing God fall woefully short, as do all of ours.
This is why Jesus came in the first place...to do for us what we were unable to do for ourselves.
Sorry but i do think this comment is about your interpretation of what studier said, i don't see what you're saying in his comments. Really think it would be best to ask what they meant, rather than assume you've interpreted it correctly.
Seen so many discussions here get heated unnecessarily , we all want our opinions treated with respect and must give respect to the opinion of others too.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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Also, your continued conflation of obedience to faith has been acknowledged. No one here is saying that salvation doesn't produce obedience. What they are contending is that obedience is the result of salvation, and not its cause.
If God commands us to believe, and He does, then how is our belief not also obedience to God's command?

I've yet to have anyone answer this question other than a guy who I was teaching who it hit like a light and some other face-to-face students then and thereafter. It also rendered a pastor and scholar who was in one my classes tongue tied for a moment until he said he'd have to go home and think about it.

Our obedience is our salvation because it is parallel to our faith. We're both believing and obeying the Gospel - when we believe the Gospel we also obey the Gospel. God starts us out in Faith-Obedience and develops our Faith-Obedience.

As I said, this parallelism can be seen in Rom10 and Heb3 and in a legitimate way of translating the phrase "obedience of faith" Rom1:5; 16:26 that Paul says is his mission to the nations on behalf of Jesus Christ.

You'll have to change your claim to the one who wrote Scripture conflating obedience and faith.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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Anyone who believes they are obeying in order to maintain their salvation is not trusting Christ alone for their salvation.
Anyone Christian who believes obedience is optional in salvation does not understand faith or salvation.

When we trust Christ, we are submitting to Christ and do obey Him increasingly or He is not the Christ/King to us.
 
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Do you suppose my efforts here are designed to be harm @studier? That's not the case. Redemption is found alone in the life and death of the Lord Jesus Christ. His death to satisfy the wrath of God on our behalf, and His life to provide the necessary righteousness that is greater than the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. But this is all that is necessary for us to have peace with God.

Some are suggesting that more is necessary on our part. They are saying the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is not sufficient for salvation. They are saying that continued obedience is necessary for salvation. This not only adds to scripture, but it means their faith is not only in Christ, but also their continuing efforts. That's not the gospel according to 1 Corinthians 15.

So should I keep silent and not share the consequences of such a belief? Should I persist in showing the error? Does posing a question that makes clear a position be counted as out of bounds?

Anyone who believes they are obeying in order to maintain their salvation is not trusting Christ alone for their salvation. If that doesn't grieve your heart on their behalf, I don't know what to tell you. It does grieve mine.
i don't agree with your interpretation of what they said and wouldn't be doing you any favours if i indulged you here. Think you're too invested in this particular viewpoint of yours to see clearly, we all have things we're a bit touchy about.

Some might say Christ's sacrifice isn't enough but really don't think studier did friend, think you should consider you might be a little oversensitive at the moment.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Sorry but i do think this comment is about your interpretation of what studier said, i don't see what you're saying in his comments. Really think it would be best to ask what they meant, rather than assume you've interpreted it correctly.
Seen so many discussions here get heated unnecessarily , we all want our opinions treated with respect and must give respect to the opinion of others too.
He had every opportunity to clarify in one singular question but refused. I understand his position. I also know what his refusal to answer means.

Again, if this doesn't stir your heart for him I am still at a loss of what to tell you.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Anyone Christian who believes obedience is optional in salvation does not understand faith or salvation.

When we trust Christ, we are submitting to Christ and do obey Him increasingly or He is not the Christ/King to us.
No one has argued against ongoing obedience; only what its source is and for what purpose it is done.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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i don't agree with your interpretation of what they said and wouldn't be doing you any favours if i indulged you here. Think you're too invested in this particular viewpoint of yours to see clearly, we all have things we're a bit touchy about.

Some might say Christ's sacrifice isn't enough but really don't think studier did friend, think you should consider you might be a little oversensitive at the moment.
If you knew me you would know I'm neither sensitive or emotional. I've been called many things on this site. I keep my comments to describing behavior, and not name calling.
I'm not a new Christian like yourself. You may trust your discernment. I have already found it inaccurate.
 
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Folks who teach salvation by works will typically try to turn "not saved by works" passages into saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) but this argument is false.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now which good works could a Christian do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

So when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law of Moses. In Titus 3:5, Paul said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. so "not saved by works" is not merely limited to specific works under the law of Moses, but works in general.
 
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He had every opportunity to clarify in one singular question but refused. I understand his position. I also know what his refusal to answer means.

Again, if this doesn't stir your heart for him I am still at a loss of what to tell you.
This is saddening to me Cameron, i can't agree with you. Think you're oversensitive on this issue and you try to set limits to how they can reply to your questions.
That isn't fair, i honestly think you should take a break and look back over it later. Have a break friend.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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No one has argued against ongoing obedience; only what its source is and for what purpose it is done.
Do you agree that Biblical faith and obedience are parallel?

Do you have any thoughts about God's command to believe in Jesus meaning belief and obedience are parallel?

Do you believe obedience is optional?

Answering part of what I say isn't really dealing with the whole topic.

Break my logic Scripturally and I'll listen.
 
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If you knew me you would know I'm neither sensitive or emotional. I've been called many things on this site. I keep my comments to describing behavior, and not name calling.
I'm not a new Christian like yourself. You may trust your discernment. I have already found it inaccurate.
You do seem overwrought friend, now you're trying to convince me you're the arbiter of truth. You need to take a break.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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If God commands us to believe, and He does, then how is our belief not also obedience to God's command?

I've yet to have anyone answer this question other than a guy who I was teaching who it hit like a light and some other face-to-face students then and thereafter. It also rendered a pastor and scholar who was in one my classes tongue tied for a moment until he said he'd have to go home and think about it.

Our obedience is our salvation because it is parallel to our faith. We're both believing and obeying the Gospel - when we believe the Gospel we also obey the Gospel. God starts us out in Faith-Obedience and develops our Faith-Obedience.

As I said, this parallelism can be seen in Rom10 and Heb3 and in a legitimate way of translating the phrase "obedience of faith" Rom1:5; 16:26 that Paul says is his mission to the nations on behalf of Jesus Christ.

You'll have to change your claim to the one who wrote Scripture conflating obedience and faith.
One does what they believe. I agree that faith and works go hand in hand. But it is belief that results in works. One is subservient to the other. That's why the work of God is to believe...because what we believe, we do.

You believe you must obey to maintain your salvation. Thus, your obedience is not born out of a love of God, but to remain in relationship to Him. Christians are related to God in Christ, and obey because they love God, and that because He first loved them.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Do you agree that Biblical faith and obedience are parallel?

Do you have any thoughts about God's command to believe in Jesus meaning belief and obedience are parallel?

Do you believe obedience is optional?

Answering part of what I say isn't really dealing with the whole topic.

Break my logic Scripturally and I'll listen.
No. One is the result of the other.
 
Sep 29, 2024
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Yes even Adam and Eve beforhand they would determine thier life or death based on the information God spoke to them

its mans place in the proper order of creation to live by the words of God rather than having the onowledge of good and evil and determining our own judgements other than those he gave us.

notice the presence of man’s agency in each example and how mans action after they are Informed by God will determine the outcome

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If Adam eats the forbidden fruit ….,he’s surely going to die now.

“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

if cain does what’s right he and his sacrifice will be accepted as abel , but if cain doesn’t do what is right sin will overcome him and have him and sin brings death so death will pass upon him if he doesn’t repent and do what’s right …..

He gave israel the law of Moses and then said

“This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses.

Now choose life, so that you and your children may live”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭

theres always man’s agency that’s present when we deal with God even in examples like this notice Moses required action by Gods word , for this to be fulfilled

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods word weaves Moses belief and action into what he told him . If Moses doesn’t respond to his word it won’t be fulfilled it requires Moses to “stretch forth his hand that there may be “

God isn’t unable to act without man , when he created us he included us in creations proper order with agency and purpose

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what happened was Satan hijacked mankind’s heart and mind to use our agency for evil rather than what God had told us . And God is trying to redeem everyone before it’s too late. Many reject the gospel which is what can save them. What he’s done and said , to save us all

think about it …..if I don’t want you to make the right choice I might try to convince you you have no choice no ability to choose either way . If I can convince you then I’ve stopped you from hearing this simplicity

ive set before you life and death , choose life so you will live “

if im not able to choose either way and have no agency then I’ll never hear God saying choose life and live …or I’ll respond “ that’s not for me I can’t choose “

self defeating but God is trying to teach us how to choose life and live in the gospel

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But the other choice

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Our choice now is salvation or damnation

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;


but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Blessings and hugs for this comment friend, copying and pasting it, some very useful scriptures. Cheers :)
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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If God commands us to believe, and He does, then how is our belief not also obedience to God's command?

I've yet to have anyone answer this question other than a guy who I was teaching who it hit like a light and some other face-to-face students then and thereafter. It also rendered a pastor and scholar who was in one my classes tongue tied for a moment until he said he'd have to go home and think about it.

Our obedience is our salvation because it is parallel to our faith. We're both believing and obeying the Gospel - when we believe the Gospel we also obey the Gospel. God starts us out in Faith-Obedience and develops our Faith-Obedience.

As I said, this parallelism can be seen in Rom10 and Heb3 and in a legitimate way of translating the phrase "obedience of faith" Rom1:5; 16:26 that Paul says is his mission to the nations on behalf of Jesus Christ.

You'll have to change your claim to the one who wrote Scripture conflating obedience and faith.
When we say “believe “ we’re not all meaning the same thing

some believe this scripture

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:29‬ ‭

and then when he speaks

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭

they reject what he’s saying as relevant who was sent to speak the truth from God that saves and sets free

“ Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭

People have tried to remove this part of the gospel

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

imagine removing everything God said about salvation in the gospel and then saying your saved by faith and you believe ….

v hearing the gospel of the lord Jesus Christ and believing what you’ve heard as of it’s his word and true

thats the difference in forms of belief . “god exists and I’m saved by Grace now “

V what God said about being saved in his son Jesus Christ by the gospel he sent to all his creatures. And said anyone who believes shall be saved ….

Gods version of him , which is the gospel , or our version which won’t sound anything like his version ultimately
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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I knew this.

I also know you've not thought through what I asked you about being commanded to believe.

Is obedience optional?
You are asking me a yes or no question, yet refuse to answer mine.
I'll answer your question, though. But in it's current estate, can you clarify...optional for what? Salvation? Or as a result of salvation?

And please answer my question: is ongoing obedience necessary to maintain one's salvation?