Which works justify?

[wattie]

Until people decide to understand that James and Paul are talking about different kinds of works, then they will never understand the point of James 2. That is the problem believing in faith alone without any act of obedience. James 2 poses the problem for people who believe obedience to God by faith be saved is not essential. Their doctrine will contradict the Bible.

Again..James isn't talking about justification for eternal salvation..but works pleasing to God for those already justified ..not by works.

The examples James gives are people who already have faith and are using it.

Not people doing works to get saved..or that if they didn't do them they weren't saved.

What is the will of the Father? Firstly?

John 6:40..believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

"Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."" John 6:29

Abraham believed to the point where he did as God asked. It really is not that hard. If you go to a doctor and he prescribes a medicine, most people will take it. Why? Because you trust the doctor. If you do not take the medicine, you prove that you do not trust him. You may claim to trust the doctor but your "works" show otherwise.

Amen. It’s different to say “ I have faith in God therefore I dont need to hear and do anything he said I need to do because I have faith that saved me already “


That’s just another way to avoid what God said and is void of faith . If we believe in Jesus his word should be the word of God

 

[LifelongLearner]

Abraham was called by God and he “obeyed” (Heb. 11:8). Abraham was 75 years old (Gen. 12:4). In Genesis 12:6-7, Abraham built an altar to worship God. In Genesis 12:8, he moved to the mountain and built another altar to call on the Lord. After spending time in Egypt, in Genesis 13:4, Abraham came back to the altar and called on the name of the Lord. After the slaughter of the kings in chapter 14, he gave a tithe to Melchizedek and was blessed (14:18-20). Chapter 15 begins with God telling Abraham, “I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward” (15:1), and then promising him a son and descendants (15:2-5). Abraham’s faith had been obedient for many years. (He’s 86 years old in 16:16.) The verse often quoted to prove “faith only” actually is in the context of a book (Romans) of faith-filled obedience and a man (Abraham) of many years of faith-filled obedience.

It’s interesting that James also quotes Genesis 15:6 and mentioned the scripture was fulfilled in James 2 verse 23 “And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God”,

Notice the word “fulfilled” that James uses. He also says, “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only” (verse 24). Does he say these verses before or after he mentions about Abraham offering Isaac?

James also alludes to how “by works” Abraham’s “was faith made perfect?” (Verse 22), the greatest being his offering of his beloved son of promise, Isaac, upon an altar as a sacrifice in obedience to the command of God (verse 21; cf. Genesis 22:1-18). He thus was the friend of God (verse 23).

Your comment is close to what i think currently, personally think we do have some agency which some conflate with bringing about our salvation ourselves. Too many want everything to be clear cut and simple, which is sort of leaning on your own understanding.

Not been a believer long enough to quote reams of scriptures like some but even God counseling Cain, suggests we do have some impactful agency to me. Personally consider it possible salvation was possible even for him if he'd felt the slightest guilt/remorse. Calvinists helped me begin my spiritual journey, however, i do now think others have ideas with legs too. Pastor Mike Winger is the theologian closest to where i'm at currently.

 

[studier]

I recognize I can't keep any commandment apart from God. I only obey as I walk in the Spirit and as Christ lives in me. So my endeavor isn't obedience. Rather, I make every effort to abide in Christ, that He might lead me into all righteousness.

Sorry, Cameron but this is indicative of how such things re: obedience get so convoluted.

"I only obey as I walk in the Spirit as Christ lives in me.

• We 're commanded to walk in Spirit - thus walking in the Spirit includes our obedience
• We're commanded to remain in Christ > and He will remain in us - thus this mutual abiding includes our obedience
• IOW, we can't walk or abide unless we are obedient. Then we can discuss spiritual growth - being saved.

"I make every effort to abide in Christ"

• You make every effort to abide - and since He commands us to abide - then you make every effort to obey.
  • And this "every effort" is good work done in Faith-Obedience
• Will He lead you into all righteousness if you're not obeying and working/cooperating with Him?

There's a kind of chicken and the egg concept that is in Scripture. I'm not going to wait for your answer but will play question and answer myself:

• Does God command men to believe in His Son
  • Yes, He does.
• Then when a man believes in His Son, has that man also obeyed God (knowingly or unknowingly)?
  • Yes, he has.

This is correlated to how Rom10 and Heb3 treat Faith and Obedience in parallel (also Rom1 & 16). We can play games if we want, but we really cannot divorce Biblical Faith in God from Obedience to God. He has us wrapped in some tight logic that doesn't allow it. He defines and describes Biblical Faith, we don't. Obedience is no more optional than Faith is optional.

I've watched some in this thread attach descriptors to Faith. I'm attaching "Biblical". Others have added "true" or adverbially "truly believe". IMO it's a good idea to do so because there is reason in the Text to also discuss the concept of belief that is not what God sees as true belief. I think it was @Believer08 who brought out the demons believe, but they are the epitome of belief that is not Biblical Belief.

I'm not telling you what to do, but if I were you, I'd read and reread your post and maybe my answer to it. There's a dim light trying to become bright.

 

[Cameron143]

Sorry, Cameron but this is indicative of how such things re: obedience get so convoluted.

"I only obey as I walk in the Spirit as Christ lives in me.

• We 're commanded to walk in Spirit - thus walking in the Spirit includes our obedience
• We're commanded to remain in Christ > and He will remain in us - thus this mutual abiding includes our obedience
• IOW, we can't walk or abide unless we are obedient. Then we can discuss spiritual growth - being saved.

"I make every effort to abide in Christ"

• You make every effort to abide - and since He commands us to abide - then you make every effort to obey.
  • And this "every effort" is good work done in Faith-Obedience
• Will He lead you into all righteousness if you're not obeying and working/cooperating with Him?

There's a kind of chicken and the egg concept that is in Scripture. I'm not going to wait for your answer but will play question and answer myself:

• Does God command men to believe in His Son
  • Yes, He does.
• Then when a man believes in His Son, has that man also obeyed God (knowingly or unknowingly)?
  • Yes, he has.

This is correlated to how Rom10 and Heb3 treat Faith and Obedience in parallel (also Rom1 & 16). We can play games if we want, but we really cannot divorce Biblical Faith in God from Obedience to God. He has us wrapped in some tight logic that doesn't allow it. He defines and describes Biblical Faith, we don't. Obedience is no more optional than Faith is optional.

I've watched some in this thread attach descriptors to Faith. I'm attaching "Biblical". Others have added "true" or adverbially "truly believe". IMO it's a good idea to do so because there is reason in the Text to also discuss the concept of belief that is not what God sees as true belief. I think it was @Believer08 who brought out the demons believe, but they are the epitome of belief that is not Biblical Belief.

I'm not telling you what to do, but if I were you, I'd read and reread your post and maybe my answer to it. There's a dim light trying to become bright.

I recognize we believe differently. Please answer this question: does your ongoing obedience contribute to your salvation?

Please just a simple yes or no.

 

[studier]

Notice the word “fulfilled” that James uses.

Important. "fulfilled" has always left me with the thought that it could be stated better. But your point is important IMO. Gen15:6 was fulfilled and Abraham's faith completed/perfected when he was actually doing the work about to kill his promised son.

I recall a place in Paul's writing where I think he's speaking in agreement with James but clarifying a point about works. I'll see if I can recall it.

 

[studier]

I recognize we believe differently. Please answer this question: does your ongoing obedience contribute to your salvation?

Please just a simple yes or no.

No thanks, Cameron. I've answered this in many ways. If you're going to ignore how you just twisted the concept of obedience, then I don't think there's a need for you to continue asking me questions.

 

[Believer08]

Important. "fulfilled" has always left me with the thought that it could be stated better. But your point is important IMO. Gen15:6 was fulfilled and Abraham's faith completed/perfected when he was actually doing the work about to kill his promised son.

I recall a place in Paul's writing where I think he's speaking in agreement with James but clarifying a point about works. I'll see if I can recall it.

You might be thinking of Romans 4, where he’s talking about different kinds of works than James is. Paul is referring to works of the law of Moses and James is of faith/obedience.

James was also in agreement how circumcision (a work of the law) isn’t necessary for salvation in Acts 15.

Both are in agreement, as both Paul and James were against works of the law for salvation, and Paul mentions obedience of faith in Romans.

 

[Blain]

what would qualify works of the law?

 

[LifelongLearner]

I recognize we believe differently. Please answer this question: does your ongoing obedience contribute to your salvation?

Please just a simple yes or no.

That's pretty out of order asking for a straight yes or no Cameron, pretty sure you'd think similarly if somebody tried to shackle you.

 

[Believer08]

That's pretty out of order asking for a straight yes or no Cameron, pretty sure you'd think similarly if somebody tried to shackle you.

Do yourself a favor and put Cam on ignore. You’re wasting your time with him.

 

[Believer08]

Rahab was justified before God by the faith He could discern in her heart..
Rahab was justified before the Israelites as being sincere in her profession of faith in Yahweh, by her helping the spies escape.

Rahab was justified before God in James 2.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Do yourself a favor and put Cam on ignore. You’re wasting your time with him.

Bless you for that but i'm still within my first year of spiritual belief, discussions/disagreements seem to help with my development.

 

[Believer08]

I always find it funny when someone cannot refute a biblical fact, they run to another language.

GOD is omnipotent. He can keep his word straight. I speak English and I can only speak English. He said his word is nigh unto me that I may do it and I believe GOD.

If I have to go find original text and learn Hebrew or Greek then we don't believe GOD can keep his word straight and that is a faith issue. It blows my mind when people bring up Hebrew and Greek texts. GOD is the one who confounded the languages, of course he will have his word translated into every language.

Amen…one does not need to dive into the Greek to understand clear cut passages. Sometimes it helps and can be quite beneficial, but on clear cut passages it’s no need. A lot of times, people who go to the original language to prove something end up proving something that cannot be proven in the scriptures. Or, they use a word or meaning of one that gives a different “spin” on the verse is meaning, or what the original meaning has. In other words, their goal was to establish what cannot be found in the English texts. Any practice that can only be verified by studying the original Greek should be immediately suspect.

For the most part it seems English translation are giving definitions of Greek words and we should check several translations, and that should be scholarly enough. If you use lexicons as extra research, do you find that lexicons give a different meaning than the translations? They may add light just as comparing translations do.

 

[Cameron143]

No thanks, Cameron. I've answered this in many ways. If you're going to ignore how you just twisted the concept of obedience, then I don't think there's a need for you to continue asking me questions.

Or...you don't answer because your answer belies a lack of faith in God's provision in Christ. You can say all day that the blood of Christ is sufficient for your justification, but if you must continue in obedience to that justification, you do not believe the righteousness of Christ is enough. Your faith is not merely in Christ, but in Christ and your continued obedience.

Also, your continued conflation of obedience to faith has been acknowledged. No one here is saying that salvation doesn't produce obedience. What they are contending is that obedience is the result of salvation, and not its cause. In other words, one doesn't obey either to get saved or remain saved, but because we are saved. You are contending that our obedience is the source of our ongoing justification by God. It is not. God requires a perfect righteousness. One only possesses this if one is in Christ. It is His righteousness that preserves us and His blood that justifies us. Your best efforts at pleasing God fall woefully short, as do all of ours.
This is why Jesus came in the first place...to do for us what we were unable to do for ourselves.

 

[studier]

You might be thinking of Romans 4,

I think you're correct. Paul's language in Rom4:2 is assuming it's true for sake of argument. IOW he sounds like he's clarifying James' argument who wrote before Paul and whom Paul had spent time with. So, he's clarifying James is not speaking of works of law and Paul instructs how Abraham was pre-law and a Gentile and puts the whole works of law issue to bed.

 

[mailmandan]

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified (accounted as righteous) on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9);

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo":

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be -- *fits the context.
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo":

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous -- *fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

 

[Believer08]

I think you're correct. Paul's language in Rom4:2 is assuming it's true for sake of argument. IOW he sounds like he's clarifying James' argument who wrote before Paul and whom Paul had spent time with. So, he's clarifying James is not speaking of works of law and Paul instructs how Abraham was pre-law and a Gentile and puts the whole works of law issue to bed.

Exactly.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Your comment is close to what i think currently, personally think we do have some agency which some conflate with bringing about our salvation ourselves. Too many want everything to be clear cut and simple, which is sort of leaning on your own understanding.

Not been a believer long enough to quote reams of scriptures like some but even God counseling Cain, suggests we do have some impactful agency to me. Personally consider it possible salvation was possible even for him if he'd felt the slightest guilt/remorse. Calvinists helped me begin my spiritual journey, however, i do now think others have ideas with legs too. Pastor Mike Winger is the theologian closest to where i'm at currently.

Yes even Adam and Eve beforhand they would determine thier life or death based on the information God spoke to them

its mans place in the proper order of creation to live by the words of God rather than having the onowledge of good and evil and determining our own judgements other than those he gave us.

notice the presence of man’s agency in each example and how mans action after they are Informed by God will determine the outcome

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If Adam eats the forbidden fruit ….,he’s surely going to die now.

“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

if cain does what’s right he and his sacrifice will be accepted as abel , but if cain doesn’t do what is right sin will overcome him and have him and sin brings death so death will pass upon him if he doesn’t repent and do what’s right …..

He gave israel the law of Moses and then said

“This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses.

Now choose life, so that you and your children may live”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭

theres always man’s agency that’s present when we deal with God even in examples like this notice Moses required action by Gods word , for this to be fulfilled

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods word weaves Moses belief and action into what he told him . If Moses doesn’t respond to his word it won’t be fulfilled it requires Moses to “stretch forth his hand that there may be “

God isn’t unable to act without man , when he created us he included us in creations proper order with agency and purpose

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what happened was Satan hijacked mankind’s heart and mind to use our agency for evil rather than what God had told us . And God is trying to redeem everyone before it’s too late. Many reject the gospel which is what can save them. What he’s done and said , to save us all

think about it …..if I don’t want you to make the right choice I might try to convince you you have no choice no ability to choose either way . If I can convince you then I’ve stopped you from hearing this simplicity

ive set before you life and death , choose life so you will live “

if im not able to choose either way and have no agency then I’ll never hear God saying choose life and live …or I’ll respond “ that’s not for me I can’t choose “

self defeating but God is trying to teach us how to choose life and live in the gospel

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But the other choice

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Our choice now is salvation or damnation

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;


but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Cameron143]

That's pretty out of order asking for a straight yes or no Cameron, pretty sure you'd think similarly if somebody tried to shackle you.

Do you suppose my efforts here are designed to be harm @studier? That's not the case. Redemption is found alone in the life and death of the Lord Jesus Christ. His death to satisfy the wrath of God on our behalf, and His life to provide the necessary righteousness that is greater than the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. But this is all that is necessary for us to have peace with God.

Some are suggesting that more is necessary on our part. They are saying the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is not sufficient for salvation. They are saying that continued obedience is necessary for salvation. This not only adds to scripture, but it means their faith is not only in Christ, but also their continuing efforts. That's not the gospel according to 1 Corinthians 15.

So should I keep silent and not share the consequences of such a belief? Should I persist in showing the error? Does posing a question that makes clear a position be counted as out of bounds?

Anyone who believes they are obeying in order to maintain their salvation is not trusting Christ alone for their salvation. If that doesn't grieve your heart on their behalf, I don't know what to tell you. It does grieve mine.