The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[HeIsHere]

Paul is just literally saying work out the salvation you have been given.

He literally says it is God who is at work in us

He then tells us what he means

do all things without complaining, be a light in the world. etc etc.

we do not do these things to get saved, keep our salvation or keep from losing salvation. they are a result of the workmanship God created in us to do.

He is speaking about the benefits to the soul which come from 'spiritual salvation."

If we do not live as new creations it will affect us in other ways, he is making a very serious statement about this.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

He is speaking about the benefits to the soul which come from 'spiritual salvation."

If we do not live as new creations it will affect us in other ways, he is making a very serious statement about this.

yes,

one things is our light will be snuffed out. and our word and reputation will be destroyed

 

[GWH]

As I recall from your posts on your threads you list 5 or so points. The foundational point of the Gospel as I read it is very simple; Jesus is the Christ - 1Cor3:11. Paul was constrained to proclaim this Acts18:5. Paul's evangelism was this specifically in longer version in Acts13:16-42 within which he includes the death, burial and resurrection all establish that Jesus is the long-awaited Christ.

Within the record of Paul's Gospel proclamation at Acts13:33 Paul points to Psalm2 that may well be the best brief sections of Scripture to explain what "Christ" means, so who Jesus is - YHWH's Christ - YHWH's King of kings.

IMO everything boils down to this foundation which Paul says is the only foundation that can be built upon. It's simply put, all an authority issue as it has been since the Garden and before with the fallen angelic realm.

Foundation first. Then build.

Yes I agree. The five points specify what is implied by belief in Christ for salvation, answering Who saves, who needs to be saved, saved from what and to what.

 

[Kroogz]

One more time

WHAT WORK DO WE HAVE TO DO

I am sick of your childish games and false accusations.

Until you tell me WHAT WORK you claim we have to do. there is no need or use trying to discuss the two verses you seem to want to discuss over and over.

Answer my question please. How many times do I have to ask before you show even a little but of humility to answer my question?

I am getting a little anxious also. I would like to have this exact path to salvation.

If I had the spreadsheet of do's and don'ts for salvation.....I would share them with the world.

 

[Cameron143]

A couple comments attempting only to find the accuracy in Phil2:12-13:

• Your statement about 2:12 is one of the better simple paraphrases I've seen using the English "work out" and comparing it to 2:13.
• I'd tighten up your 2:13 statement because what God is doing in us is working in us so we both will [to work], and work for the sake of/on behalf of [His] good pleasure.
  • More literally, He is providing capacity for us to both desire and to work
    • Ultimately, He will have children whose nature is aligned with His will doing His work just as His first-born Son and our Lord and brother did. So, carry this thought into the following.
• The issue for me as I study this:
  • "work out" is not a primary translation of this word and it is not translated this way any other time it is used in our Text.
  • Translators can be sensitive in how they translate based upon their theology. Even our Greek lexicons can contain theological leanings.
  • The word is a compound word that intensifies the base word which basically means "work to accomplish" - so the base word is emphasizing the work, and I see the intensified word emphasizing the accomplishment of the work, which is a primary lexical definition of the intensified word form.
  • So, 2:12-13 is very clearly IMO saying God is providing His capacity for us to both desire to work and to do the work to accomplish salvation. I see no reason to apply our theological leanings to explain this away. I see it detrimental to our accurate understanding to be explaining it away. It is God's Salvation - His Plan - completed by the triune God and graciously gifted by Him to us. We work with Him in the process of completing our salvation as commanded and know we cannot do anything apart from Him and know that He is providing the capacity for both our will and our work and that He has newly created us for good works, etc... Where's the boast? We know we'll be throwing our crowns at His feet thanking Him and acknowledging it was impossible for us to do anything without and apart from Him.
  • To take this further, 2:13 is the explanation - the reasoning - for 2:12. So, we're commanded to accomplish (by work) our salvation with fear and trembling and IMO, this fear and trembling is a major part of what's being explained in 2:13 - IOW, God is working in us to provide what we need to accomplish what He wants accomplished so we best not be working at cross-purposes to Him - against Him.
  • When a theological tradition tells me we have no part in our salvation because it extends its concept of faith alone past our entrance into Christ (let alone when it argues against Christ's command to unbelievers to work to hear and learn the Gospel) and I come to Scripture like Phil2:12-13 and translate and meditate on it for long and repetitive times, I simply choose to comply with the Word and drop the tradition.

In regard to the fruit production the only thing I'll say at the moment is that we're commanded by Jesus Christ to remain in Him - attached to Him, the vine. Faithful obedience to Him is included in the production. To produce is another way the command in Phil2:12 can be considered for definition. God's capacity being given to us to accomplish salvation is quite similar to the capacity given to us by the vine for production. These concepts involve our participation.

If you believe I need to tighten up my understanding, perhaps you can tighten up your answers. You write much to say little. And your form is more confusing than clear. Just state what you mean. I find your message hard to follow.

I do believe our cooperation with God is in view. God saved us to have relationship with us. Part of this is a joint participation in our sanctification. However, we don't produce fruit nor conform ourselves, so clearly these are done by God Himself. So God willing and doing in us is not God simply enabling us to do things independently of Him. He is actually affectuating change in us that leads us into greater dependency. So while there is a cooperation between God and man, man's cooperation is in a subservient role and allows for greater or less change, but not change itself.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I am getting a little anxious also. I would like to have this exact path to salvation.

If I had the spreadsheet of do's and don'ts for salvation.....I would share them with the world.

its sad he will not let us know the path

 

[Kroogz]

its sad he will not let us know the path

The truth can never be backed into a corner.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Never perish. No condemnation. Never forsaken. No separation. Our advocate never stops....

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The truth can never be backed into a corner.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Never perish. No condemnation. Never forsaken. No separation. Our advocate never stops....

They can not stand the fact that there is nothing they can do. it goes against human reasoning.

 

[HeIsHere]

They can not stand the fact that there is nothing they can do. it goes against human reasoning.

Agree and human self-righteousness.

 

[Kroogz]

They can not stand the fact that there is nothing they can do

From my experience, this is the exact point when the true Christian way of life begins.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

From my experience, this is the exact point when the true Christian way of life begins.

Jesus said it best.

Blessed are the poor in spirit (literally bancrupt) for THEIRS is the kingdom.

the tax collector is the example.

 

[studier]

That verse does not have "spiritual salvation" in view.

Elaborate?

 

[Kroogz]

Elaborate?

Yeah. And you have been asked MANY times what the exact works and fruits we are to produce to ensure our salvation.

If you have the keys to getting my butt saved, Give me the exact detail's of the works and amount of works I need to do.

You owe it to me and every other person on this planet......No small matter.

 

[studier]

If you believe I need to tighten up my understanding, perhaps you can tighten up your answers. You write much to say little. And your form is more confusing than clear. Just state what you mean. I find your message hard to follow.

Maybe you and I can have more productive discussion. Don't get caught up in the mess of the other ones. They'll remain a mess until if and when @Everlasting-Grace decides to go through some Scripture in more depth. I've been clear how I see John6 that unbelievers are commanded to work to hear and learn what God teaches so they can believe His teaching. I think I've been clear re: Phil2. I think I'm seeing some terminology being stated by others to avoid the language of Phil2, but I'm used to that

I do believe our cooperation with God is in view. God saved us to have relationship with us. Part of this is a joint participation in our sanctification. However, we don't produce fruit nor conform ourselves, so clearly these are done by God Himself. So God willing and doing in us is not God simply enabling us to do things independently of Him. He is actually affectuating change in us that leads us into greater dependency. So while there is a cooperation between God and man, man's cooperation is in a subservient role and allows for greater or less change, but not change itself.

Pursuant to your sentences:

I also believe our cooperation is in view and I agree with your relationship comment.

I disagree with your changing 'salvation" in 2:12 to sanctification and see no reason to change the language of the Scripture. I do understand what you mean, and I do agree conceptually that the part of the salvation process being discussed is typically referred to as experiential or progressive sanctification and on this thread has been called conditional sanctification. But this is indicative of what happens when we start making up our own terminology and creating our own theological categories. In the language of Scripture, it is referred to as a Christian being sanctified and it is referred to as a Christian being saved. Also, sanctification is referred to in the past tense re: when one turns to Christ just as salvation is referred to in the same past tense - were saved. The Justification > Sanctification > Glorification is a theological construct that IMO causes the type of debates we see on these threads where people have no clue that salvation is a process referred to in the past tense, present tense, and future tense.

But fruit is produced through us as we remain in the vine. The vine works in and through branches to produce fruit. No healthy branches, then no fruit. And it is not done by God Himself as Paul discusses in regard to God causing the increase while working with men who plant and water. Jesus is providing the nutrients, so we produce fruit of the Spirit. Our Father is pruning. The whole thing is relational. It's the similar process of Phil2:12. Our Father is providing the capacity for us to accomplish salvation - being saved - as we're commanded.

I agree that God is not enabling us to do things independently just as I agree we can do nothing separate from the vine. But the command in 2:13 is for us to do work to accomplish while God is working in us to will to do and to do the work. Again, apart from Him we cannot do this. I've been clear how these 2 verses work together. I don't separate them in any way.

Greater dependency yes and no. We're dependent upon Him completely from alpha to omega. No Plan and His work to institute His Plan, we're left unsaved. No content, then nothing to believe. No belief no relationship. No abiding relationship we can do "NOTHING" - no production. No Spirit, no walk, no being led, no being guided. No capacity from God we cannot will or do what He commands of His children. Re: the yes and the no, it's kind of interesting to consider when we start with completely, but I get the gist.

Subservient cooperation, absolutely. In fact, I see faith itself as subservience. Greater or less change meaning e.g. various levels of productivity, certainly. Change itself - as I understand you it's not optional - agreed. I think part of this discussion is about this last part where we peel off into discussions re: never saved, lose salvation, eternal security (accommodating others terminology and not really adverse to it).

Clear or not, that's it for now.

More reasonable questions attempted. More reasonable answers attempted.

 

[studier]

Yeah. And you have been asked MANY times what the exact works and fruits we are to produce to ensure our salvation.

If you have the keys to getting my butt saved, Give me the exact detail's of the works and amount of works I need to do.

You owe it to me and every other person on this planet......No small matter.

The question wasn't to you.

Do you think John6:27 is a command for unbelievers to work to hear and learn the Gospel?

Do you think Phil2:12-13 is a command to Christians to work together with God to accomplish your salvation with fear and trembling?

If this helps, do you see in Luke 8 varying levels of productivity for the 4th soil?

Don't change the language of Scripture to suit your tradition.

Simple questions. Simple suggestion at the end.

 

[Cameron143]

Maybe you and I can have more productive discussion. Don't get caught up in the mess of the other ones. They'll remain a mess until if and when @Everlasting-Grace decides to go through some Scripture in more depth. I've been clear how I see John6 that unbelievers are commanded to work to hear and learn what God teaches so they can believe His teaching. I think I've been clear re: Phil2. I think I'm seeing some terminology being stated by others to avoid the language of Phil2, but I'm used to that



Pursuant to your sentences:

I also believe our cooperation is in view and I agree with your relationship comment.

I disagree with your changing 'salvation" in 2:12 to sanctification and see no reason to change the language of the Scripture. I do understand what you mean, and I do agree conceptually that the part of the salvation process being discussed is typically referred to as experiential or progressive sanctification and on this thread has been called conditional sanctification. But this is indicative of what happens when we start making up our own terminology and creating our own theological categories. In the language of Scripture, it is referred to as a Christian being sanctified and it is referred to as a Christian being saved. Also, sanctification is referred to in the past tense re: when one turns to Christ just as salvation is referred to in the same past tense - were saved. The Justification > Sanctification > Glorification is a theological construct that IMO causes the type of debates we see on these threads where people have no clue that salvation is a process referred to in the past tense, present tense, and future tense.

But fruit is produced through us as we remain in the vine. The vine works in and through branches to produce fruit. No healthy branches, then no fruit. And it is not done by God Himself as Paul discusses in regard to God causing the increase while working with men who plant and water. Jesus is providing the nutrients, so we produce fruit of the Spirit. Our Father is pruning. The whole thing is relational. It's the similar process of Phil2:12. Our Father is providing the capacity for us to accomplish salvation - being saved - as we're commanded.

I agree that God is not enabling us to do things independently just as I agree we can do nothing separate from the vine. But the command in 2:13 is for us to do work to accomplish while God is working in us to will to do and to do the work. Again, apart from Him we cannot do this. I've been clear how these 2 verses work together. I don't separate them in any way.

Greater dependency yes and no. We're dependent upon Him completely from alpha to omega. No Plan and His work to institute His Plan, we're left unsaved. No content, then nothing to believe. No belief no relationship. No abiding relationship we can do "NOTHING" - no production. No Spirit, no walk, no being led, no being guided. No capacity from God we cannot will or do what He commands of His children. Re: the yes and the no, it's kind of interesting to consider when we start with completely, but I get the gist.

Subservient cooperation, absolutely. In fact, I see faith itself as subservience. Greater or less change meaning e.g. various levels of productivity, certainly. Change itself - as I understand you it's not optional - agreed. I think part of this discussion is about this last part where we peel off into discussions re: never saved, lose salvation, eternal security (accommodating others terminology and not really adverse to it).

Clear or not, that's it for now.

More reasonable questions attempted. More reasonable answers attempted.

I do understand your position better after this post.

Regarding Philippians 2:12, I disagree that salvation there is speaking of our initial salvation. It is clear from the verse itself this is not the case. He begins the verse by speaking of their past obedience when he was present with them, and now in his absence he is exhorting them to continue in it. The verse makes no sense for him to be exhorting them to salvation after so long a time. Sanctification is what is in view.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Again it is the conflation of spiritual salvation/justified and sanctification/discipleship.

With regards to believed in vain ......
If you read in context, there were people who going about stating that Jesus had not risen from the dead and Paul was reminding them that if Jesus had not risen from the dead then their belief was in vain.

They were saved, but were falling prey to false teachings because they were being persuaded by human reasoning... yet Paul is reminding them that they need to rely upon the spiritual understanding they have been given after their conversions.

Just that? That verse came from 1 Corinthians 15 - you didn't go far enough into that chapter. Paul had to go over the entire concept of what Jesus did dying and resurrecting from the dead and what it did for us because some people were no longer following after the Lord, not doing the work of the Lord (which is by His Holy Spirit). That whole chapter culminated into Paul's exhortation on its last verse:

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

So this is not just a one time event where you can just mentally agree with the Lord and go and do whatever you want. It has to be an on-going walk with the Lord in His Spirit. Remember: salvation doesn't just make Jesus your Savior, He has to be your Lord too, where you have to deny yourself as well as die to self. How can He sanctify you if you aren't walking with Him by His Spirit? What can God do, if you're not fully cooperating with Him? He isn't going to force you. If Jesus isn't your Lord, you're NOT qualified for salvation.


⌛

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I do understand your position better after this post.

Regarding Philippians 2:12, I disagree that salvation there is speaking of our initial salvation. It is clear from the verse itself this is not the case. He begins the verse by speaking of their past obedience when he was present with them, and now in his absence he is exhorting them to continue in it. The verse makes no sense for him to be exhorting them to salvation after so long a time. Sanctification is what is in view.

You should read his post more carefully because he didn't say that passage was speaking of initial salvation. If you read his post more carefully, he was stating that salvation is a process (which includes sanctification) which shows he's in agreement with Philippians 2:12 without changing its meaning.


⌛

 

[Cameron143]

You should read his post more carefully because he didn't say that passage was speaking of initial salvation. If you read his post more carefully, he was stating that salvation is a process (which includes sanctification) which shows he's in agreement with Philippians 2:12 without changing its meaning.


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Salvation is both a process and a moment in time. Which one of these is being referenced by any particular verse is what is in question. And he has in fact changed the plain meaning of the verse and I explained why.

 

[Believer08]

Just that? That verse came from 1 Corinthians 15 - you didn't go far enough into that chapter. Paul had to go over the entire concept of what Jesus did dying and resurrecting from the dead and what it did for us because some people were no longer following after the Lord, not doing the work of the Lord (which is by His Holy Spirit). That whole chapter culminated into Paul's exhortation on its last verse:

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

So this is not just a one time event where you can just mentally agree with the Lord and go and do whatever you want. It has to be an on-going walk with the Lord in His Spirit. Remember: salvation doesn't just make Jesus your Savior, He has to be your Lord too, where you have to deny yourself as well as die to self. How can He sanctify you if you aren't walking with Him by His Spirit? What can God do, if you're not fully cooperating with Him? He isn't going to force you. If Jesus isn't your Lord, you're NOT qualified for salvation.


⌛

Since Paul wrote that verse to the Corinthians, I believe it would be of great benefit and service if we looked at other passages on how they got saved. Same for Saul/Paul.

Let us look to the scriptures.

Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

We see here where Paul spoke the word of the Lord to them so they could learn to have faith (Rom. 10:17). He “continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them” (v11). Since he continued there teaching, then we can infer that he had been teaching those same Corinthians of how to be saved in Christ.

This would also include the necessity to repent, as Paul said God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Repentance is also what Jesus taught (Mk. 2:17).

In 1 Cor. 12:13, Paul also said, For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body…

“For by one Spirit” = Spirit’s authoritative message. By the Spirit’s authority.
That message led them to be “all baptized into one body” The Holy Spirit was the acting agent that revealed the word and and we learn to be saved through the inspired scriptures.

In Matthew 28:18-20, Jesus commanded baptism, “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”.

“In the name of” — By the authority of “the Father and of the Son…”

“and of the Holy Spirit” — It’s by the authority of the Spirit that baptism is commanded.

“baptized into one body” — It’s by the authority of the Spirit that we are baptized into one body

This baptism is the baptism that Jesus commanded His apostles to administer. It is the baptism to which every person in the book of Acts underwent to be saved. This baptism is a baptism that is for all people..and all people who is a biblical Christian has this unity with all other biblical believers that Paul mentioned in Eph. 4:4-5. This one baptism would be by the authority of God (Mt. 28:19; Acts 2:38; 1 Cor. 12:13) by which all in the world who desire to find rest in Jesus Christ can submit to by God’s authority (Mk. 16:15-16; Mt. 28:19; Acts 2:38). This baptism is water baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, 10:47-48, etc etc).

So, in total…the Corinthians conversion is in perfect harmony with the words of Jesus in Mark 16:16. They believed the gospel (which would involve responding to the gospel call. That would include repentance and baptism for the remission of sins, Acts 2:38). Paul reminded them how they believed in the gospel (1 Cor. 15), which would no doubt also involve confessing Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9-10), believing He’s the Son of God.

We find Paul’s recount of his conversion in Acts 22:16. If he was saved on the road to Damascus, then he was the most miserable saved individual in all the book of Acts. There was no rejoicing, as “he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink” (Acts 9:9). There was no peace. It is only when he obeyed the gospel and arose to repent and be baptized to have his sins washed away, calling on the name of the Lord (Acts 22:16), did he have peace (Rom. 5:1) This fits in perfect harmony with how Peter taught the Jews on Pentecost of how to call on the name of the Lord (Acts 2:21, 38-39). As well as what Jesus taught man must do to be saved under His New Testament, that began on Pentecost in Jerusalem (Lk. 24:47; Mk. 16:16; Heb. 9:16)