The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Everlasting-Grace]

I have scrolled through. Maybe I missed it.

Did you get your answer on the definitive kind and numbers of works needed so we can get our butts saved?

Nope. as a typical in these conversations, We have people make claims like "we must do works" but then when it gets to the root of the issue, they can not name any works we must do.

They attempt to change the subject or try to put it back on you to answer some nonsensical question. I guess they hope people will forget they have not answered the question given to them

 

[GWH]

When should one withdraw from fellowship?

After reproving the person for heretical or divisive/offensive behavior twice,
preferably via the method stated by Jesus in MT 18:15-17 that should precede excommunication.
Paul discussed this topic in 1CR 5:1-13 & 2CR 2:5-11 & TIT 3:10.

 

[GWH]

I’m not replying with any negative intentions. My heart is wide open and cries out to God for you. (Please don’t take that as a passive sarcastic remark, it is true thanks be to God) I went from hating myself and every human being on the planet (I would literally rather see a human dead on the side of the road than an animal) to offering up my salvation to God if it would make things right in the world (I didn’t pray it, but he knows my heart. Although the Spirit did draw me to pray and ask God to make me a martyr to show him how much I love him because of my lack of obedience, which scares the heck out of my flesh if I think about it) but anyway, I have learned from my disobedience that I can NEVER point a finger and say “they’re not of God”. We can (for the biggest part) not really tell who has the gift of eternal life, and who doesn’t. It’s not my situation to figure out, but if you love the Lord, (I can tell you have zeal for your beliefs) then I’m very humbly asking to maybe look over the doctrine of Justification Solely by Faith with an open mind and heart, and just see if it hits any mark or light in your heart. It’s just a suggestion not a passive demand. I would take a lower estate to raise you up my dear brother. Please give it a shot (just for shi+# and giggles if anything else) you will be in my prayers.

Now I say this with my heart wide for you. But a little firmer approach. Please be careful in what you claim to be truth and what you claim to be lies in doctrine. There are sins, and there are abominations to the Lord, and getting it wrong and misleading his children is a big big no no.
please consider my request. God bless you and all you love.

Re "I would literally rather see a human dead on the side of the road than an animal":
I could not keep from thinking how that would affect the lyrics of "Dead Skunk"

… Crossin' the highway late last night
He shoulda looked left and he shoulda looked right
He didn't see the station wagon car
The skunk got squashed and there you are
… You got your
Dead skunk in the middle of the road...
Stinkin' to high heaven

… Take a whiff on me, that ain't no rose
Roll up yer window and hold your nose
You don't have to look and you don't have to see
'Cause you can feel it in your olfactory
… You got your
Dead skunk in the middle of the road...
And it's stinkin' to high heaven

… Yeah you got your dead cat and you got your dead dog
On a moonlight night you got your dead toad frog
Got your dead rabbit and your dead raccoon
The blood and the guts they're gonna make you swoon
… You got your
Dead skunk in the middle of the road...
Stinkin' to high heaven
… C'mon stink

[He stinketh :-[

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Just to clarify, because I was not aware of this, and I did a bit of quick research and found that it does not come from the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance of the saints, do you have a source for this connection?

I think this came from the arminians.. accusations against calvins

 

[studier]

It's actually a little more nuanced than that.

The first part is correct...we cannot effectuate salvation. Salvation is in the purview of God. But so is our sanctification. We don't conform ourselves to the image of Christ; God does...God is at work in us, willing and doing of His good pleasure...Philippians 2:13.

This doesn't mean we aren't involved in the process. We are to work out what God is working in...Philippians 2:12.

Another example is fruit. We don't produce the fruit of the Spirit, but it should be apparent and on display with Christians.

Another aspect worth exploring is whether there are things we can do to foster the work of God in us. If so, what might these things be.

A couple comments attempting only to find the accuracy in Phil2:12-13:

• Your statement about 2:12 is one of the better simple paraphrases I've seen using the English "work out" and comparing it to 2:13.
• I'd tighten up your 2:13 statement because what God is doing in us is working in us so we both will [to work], and work for the sake of/on behalf of [His] good pleasure.
  • More literally, He is providing capacity for us to both desire and to work
    • Ultimately, He will have children whose nature is aligned with His will doing His work just as His first-born Son and our Lord and brother did. So, carry this thought into the following.
• The issue for me as I study this:
  • "work out" is not a primary translation of this word and it is not translated this way any other time it is used in our Text.
  • Translators can be sensitive in how they translate based upon their theology. Even our Greek lexicons can contain theological leanings.
  • The word is a compound word that intensifies the base word which basically means "work to accomplish" - so the base word is emphasizing the work, and I see the intensified word emphasizing the accomplishment of the work, which is a primary lexical definition of the intensified word form.
  • So, 2:12-13 is very clearly IMO saying God is providing His capacity for us to both desire to work and to do the work to accomplish salvation. I see no reason to apply our theological leanings to explain this away. I see it detrimental to our accurate understanding to be explaining it away. It is God's Salvation - His Plan - completed by the triune God and graciously gifted by Him to us. We work with Him in the process of completing our salvation as commanded and know we cannot do anything apart from Him and know that He is providing the capacity for both our will and our work and that He has newly created us for good works, etc... Where's the boast? We know we'll be throwing our crowns at His feet thanking Him and acknowledging it was impossible for us to do anything without and apart from Him.
  • To take this further, 2:13 is the explanation - the reasoning - for 2:12. So, we're commanded to accomplish (by work) our salvation with fear and trembling and IMO, this fear and trembling is a major part of what's being explained in 2:13 - IOW, God is working in us to provide what we need to accomplish what He wants accomplished so we best not be working at cross-purposes to Him - against Him.
  • When a theological tradition tells me we have no part in our salvation because it extends its concept of faith alone past our entrance into Christ (let alone when it argues against Christ's command to unbelievers to work to hear and learn the Gospel) and I come to Scripture like Phil2:12-13 and translate and meditate on it for long and repetitive times, I simply choose to comply with the Word and drop the tradition.

In regard to the fruit production the only thing I'll say at the moment is that we're commanded by Jesus Christ to remain in Him - attached to Him, the vine. Faithful obedience to Him is included in the production. To produce is another way the command in Phil2:12 can be considered for definition. God's capacity being given to us to accomplish salvation is quite similar to the capacity given to us by the vine for production. These concepts involve our participation.

 

[studier]

Grace is not free. it had a great cost. the cost of the son of God coming to earth. living 33 years on earth, suffering greatly at the hand of the romans and Jews. and then hung on a cross.

I hope you know when people say stuff like this they are in essence mocking the cross and acting as if Jesus did not really do anythying, What he did was ok, but not enough, we have to do our part.. (even though there is nothing you could do)

All you're doing here is arguing against a camp I disagree with. Free Grace vs. Grace is not Free. Faith Alone vs. Faith is never Alone. If it's not one doctrinal difference, then it's another

I can guaranty you that those I've known in the Free Grace camp have just as much reverence for our Lord God and what He's done and is doing for us than you or anybody else has.

You should put your disparaging tendency in check.

Oh it is simple. in fact it is seen in one passage. God so loved the world. he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him, will never perish but will live forever (has eternal life)

It is the legalist that makers it difficult. But they take what God calls the simplicity in Christ and make a mockery of it.

I would head pauls warning about how like the serpent deceived Eve, that we can be deceived to turn away from the simplicity in Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Go back and find my recent post to @Kroogz re: J3:16 and lets' talk Scripture and wring out it's every nuance. Then do the same with 2Cor11:3 in context.

All you're doing is adding to the list of Scriptures you're avoiding getting into any in-depth discussion about. At this point you've shrugged-off more questions about John6, Phil2 and reasoning through what Biblical Faith and Biblical Salvation is in favor of the guise of alleging I'm not answering your loaded question re: meritorious works. I have in fact answered your questions and asked you in turn to deal with a few of the Scriptures I partially base my answers on.

What I find interesting in all of these discussions is that at some point the proponents of a doctrinal issue will begin avoiding in-depth discussion of Scripture and resort to simplistic proof-texting and warnings and ad-hominem fallacies or inuendo.

Maybe we should get into the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ. Maybe you need a foundation check. Maybe you don't. I'm happy to discuss any Scripture in depth preferring to stay in the NC since that's what the OP is concerned with.

so again, What works do you think we must do to save ourselves? Since you reject not only eternal security, but that the gift of salvation was covered at Great Cost to God. but at great mercy to us?

Just as I said. Empty allegations at best. Consider these posts I'll flag for you since they weren't written to you #596 #645

 

[studier]

Okay, but my memory fails me and I am intrigued by what you think is the happy medium between being simpler than the creed I have shared and being oversimplified, so please explain/share your version of the kerygma/GRFS.

As I recall from your posts on your threads you list 5 or so points. The foundational point of the Gospel as I read it is very simple; Jesus is the Christ - 1Cor3:11. Paul was constrained to proclaim this Acts18:5. Paul's evangelism was this specifically in longer version in Acts13:16-42 within which he includes the death, burial and resurrection all establish that Jesus is the long-awaited Christ.

Within the record of Paul's Gospel proclamation at Acts13:33 Paul points to Psalm2 that may well be the best brief sections of Scripture to explain what "Christ" means, so who Jesus is - YHWH's Christ - YHWH's King of kings.

IMO everything boils down to this foundation which Paul says is the only foundation that can be built upon. It's simply put, all an authority issue as it has been since the Garden and before with the fallen angelic realm.

Foundation first. Then build.

 

[Magenta]

1 Peter 2:7-8 To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word- and to this they were appointed.

 

[studier]

Once again

WHEN YOU TELL ME WHAT WORKS YOU THINK WE HAVE TO DO TO GET SAVED. I will answer those questions.

We are not playing kids games here my friend. You made a point that salvation is not free. we must work.. So explain to me what WORK we have to do.

Or I will just assume you can't answer me, and your just here to play games. (your not the first person to come into a Christian chat room and make points against others. but never be able to back your points up with true living examples..

You can not just say you have to work. then not tell people what WORK they must do. Unless your afraid that if you answer them, you will be exposed.

We can start where you began diverting; John6:27 and Phil2:12-13 re: work Jesus commanded unbelievers to do to eventuate in being given eternal life and work Paul commanded believers to do to accomplish their [gifted] salvation with fear and trembling.

In lieu of this assume as you please.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

All you're doing here is arguing against a camp I disagree with.

All I am doing is trying to correct you because like so many, you have tried to take things you have been taught and you have tried to label people. so in effect. You do not know what people actually believe.

Free Grace vs. Grace is not Free.

There is no such things as free grace. This is a label you and others have put on people because you do not like the fact that they believe we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in the work of Christ.

Now while we do have people who believe in licentiousness.. they do not believe in Grace, they in effect believe they are not in need of Grace, that God will save them inspite of themselves or just because they said some pray without any repentance. However this false belief system is refuted in James 2 and the book of Jude. But I will be honest. in my 40 years of service to God. I have met so few of these people. they do not even show up on a data slide. because most of them do not even attend church or do anything.. and the last place they would be is in some Christian chat room trying to debate with people. it would be too much work for them.

99% of the time I see this wording used is against true grace believers. Not free grace, it is a slurr on us who trust in Christ alone.

Faith Alone vs. Faith is never Alone. If it's not one doctrinal difference, then it's another

Another slur or slanderous strawman used by people

Salvation is by Grace through faith. not of works..

But people who repent will do the works God crteated them to do

Eph 2: 1 - 10 would be of great value to you

I can guaranty you that those I've known in the Free Grace camp have just as much reverence for our Lord God and what He's done and is doing for us than you or anybody else has.

You should put your disparaging tendency in check.

You should show some humility and tell us what works we need to do to be saved, since your whole premis is that we must work to be saved.

because all you are doing is speakingf a bunch of words. which have no meaning, because you can not back your own claims.

Go back and find my recent post to @Kroogz re: J3:16 and lets' talk Scripture and wring out it's every nuance. Then do the same with 2Cor11:3 in context.

All you're doing is adding to the list of Scriptures you're avoiding getting into any in-depth discussion about. At this point you've shrugged-off more questions about John6, Phil2 and reasoning through what Biblical Faith and Biblical Salvation is in favor of the guise of alleging I'm not answering your loaded question re: meritorious works. I have in fact answered your questions and asked you in turn to deal with a few of the Scriptures I partially base my answers on.

What I find interesting in all of these discussions is that at some point the proponents of a doctrinal issue will begin avoiding in-depth discussion of Scripture and resort to simplistic proof-texting and warnings and ad-hominem fallacies or inuendo.

Maybe we should get into the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ. Maybe you need a foundation check. Maybe you don't. I'm happy to discuss any Scripture in depth preferring to stay in the NC since that's what the OP is concerned with.



Just as I said. Empty allegations at best. Consider these posts I'll flag for you since they weren't written to you #596 #645

or maybe you can once again answer the question a few of us have asked you multiple times.

What works must one do to be saved.

Answer these and we will answer yours.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

We can start where you began diverting; John6:27 and Phil2:12-13 re: work Jesus commanded unbelievers to do to eventuate in being given eternal life and work Paul commanded believers to do to accomplish their [gifted] salvation with fear and trembling.

In lieu of this assume as you please.

I have already answered those questions. please look at post # 540

Now whether you believe me or not. I have answered.

Now you answer my question. why are you so afraid to answer? is it because you know it will expose your true belief?

 

[HeIsHere]

Re "I am not sure how one can understand and come into agreement with God on the deeper truths.": I am--by learning GW (MT 4:4): the TOJ (JN 13-17) and the TOP:

TOP #157: Christ gave various gifts regarding teaching God’s Word so that God’s people would grow spiritually and become mature. [EPH 4:7-15, cf. TOP #202 &255] Although salvation is by faith, becoming spiritually mature is by good works or continuing to cooperate with the loving Spirit of God (cf. 2:10).

TOP #202: Repentance or conversion should be followed by learning more of God’s Word (LGW) in order to avoid being deceived by atheist philosophy. [COL 2:7-8, cf. TOP #255]. This truth, called discipleship or sanctification, is akin to TOP #155&157. The part of GW that is necessary to believe for salvation is the Gospel (which may be called the kerygma or preaching), and the additional learning that needs to occur for spiritual maturation is the “all truth” in JN 16:13 and the “all things/everything” in MT 28:20 (which may be called the didache or teaching).

TOP #255: By learning Scripture Christians may be wise regarding correct doctrine, rebuking and righteousness, becoming equipped for doing good works. [2TM 3:14-17&4:5] This a significant nuance or elaboration of TOP #157 & 202. Paul applies it by charging Timothy with preaching God’s Word, correcting false doctrine, rebuking sin and encouraging persevering faith.

It is the acknowledgment of who God is and who were are in Christ Jesus.

I thank my God, making mention of you always in my prayers,
5 hearing of your love and faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints,
6 that the sharing of your faith may become effective by the acknowledgment of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.
7 For we have great joy and consolation in your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed by you, brother.
Philemon 4-7

I see it as a pattern of spiritual behaviour and thoughts that align with what God truly reveals about Himself (not man made nonsense) and affirming those thoughts daily inwardly and manifesting them outwardly.

So agreeing with you, just giving it a more personal application.

I loosely adhered to a certain system (cough, cough) which ultimately denied God is love, I realized there was a disconnect from

what I believed about God because of the "system" I had adopted it was not in alignment with what God reveals and states

about Himself, therefore I could not really "take a stand where God takes a stand" or come into "agreement with God" because I

was not aligned with His revelation.

 

[HeIsHere]

Walking in the Spirit shows that person genuinely belongs to God though as the Holy Spirit is the seal given to us. If you've continually resisted and departed from walking with the Holy Spirit to the end and died, you're no longer qualified to be saved, even if you continued to go to church, read your Bible, and socialize in Christian circles.


Paul did not seem to think the original belief of the Corinthians would profit them if they did not continue in the faith. Paul says they would have believed in vain if they do not hold fast to what he preached to them.

In John 8:31 Jesus said to the Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed. We must continue in the faith as Hebrews 3:6 and 14 also tells us.

We are his house, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. ~ Hebrews 3:6

We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end. ~ Hebrews 3:14


And you don't seem to want to do that. This is why I've said that OSAS people don't want to abide or walk in the Spirit because they don't want God to be the Lord of their lives. They still want to do things their own way, but want God's salvation for the at the same time. You won't get that. It just doesn't work that way.

Again it is the conflation of spiritual salvation/justified and sanctification/discipleship.

With regards to believed in vain ......
If you read in context, there were people who going about stating that Jesus had not risen from the dead and Paul was reminding them that if Jesus had not risen from the dead then their belief was in vain.

They were saved, but were falling prey to false teachings because they were being persuaded by human reasoning... yet Paul is reminding them that they need to rely upon the spiritual understanding they have been given after their conversions.

 

[Musicmaster]

The false doctrine of salvation loss continues in some circles. It will likely continue to raise its ugly head since it is based on works-based salvation, popularized by one of the largest religions in the world.

MM

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The false doctrine of salvation loss continues in some circles. It will likely continue to raise its ugly head since it is based on works-based salvation, popularized by one of the largest religions in the world.

MM

been going on since Cain, who tried to give God of the fruit of his labor (work) and killed his brother because God accepted his animal sacrifice.

 

[studier]

@Everlasting-Grace

No more interest in your unproductive diversions:

See #546. You've barely begun to exegete John6:27 and what you have said is convoluted as my highlighted question in that post says. Simple question; did Jesus command unbelievers to work to hear and learn the Gospel which leads to His giving eternal life?

I've pointed you to more of my remarks re: Phil2:12-13. Your partial explanation of these verses is insufficient and lacks depth. Simple question, do we work with God to accomplish our salvation He has gifted us?

You're stuck on asking a question I've answered. Do you not see my answers in what I've said about those two sections of Scripture. Or do you simply desire not to see them so you can pretend I'm dodging you?

If you'd truly like to discuss whether or not men do any work whatsoever in the Salvation process, then you can find part of my answer in the above two areas of Scripture and the way I read them. You're obviously dodging dealing with these Scriptures with someone who can work in the language at or beyond your level. To label this fact as pride as you have done is simply another dodge. If you think you've discussed them in sufficient depth, then maybe that's as deep as you are able or are willing to go.

From there I'm happy to go into other Scriptures with you and see where we end up provided you can deal with them objectively if/when they are going against your tradition. I might even put up with your rude lol, dude, yawn garbage as long as we are jointly analyzing Scripture objectively since this is where all traditions stand or fall.

 

[HeIsHere]

I've pointed you to more of my remarks re: Phil2:12-13. Your partial explanation of these verses is insufficient and lacks depth. Simple question, do we work with God to accomplish our salvation He has gifted us?

That verse does not have "spiritual salvation" in view.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

@Everlasting-Grace

No more interest in your unproductive diversions:

One more time

WHAT WORK DO WE HAVE TO DO

I am sick of your childish games and false accusations.

Until you tell me WHAT WORK you claim we have to do. there is no need or use trying to discuss the two verses you seem to want to discuss over and over.

Answer my question please. How many times do I have to ask before you show even a little but of humility to answer my question?

 

[Kroogz]

Just to clarify, because I was not aware of this, and I did a bit of quick research and found that it does not come from the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance of the saints, do you have a source for this connection?

I should clarify. Thank you......You have been taught well.

OSAS has been hijacked. The overwhelming majority use OSAS based on the premise of "perseverance of the saints." OSAS in it's true and pure form is PRESERVATION by the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That verse does not have "spiritual salvation" in view.

Paul is just literally saying work out the salvation you have been given.

He literally says it is God who is at work in us

He then tells us what he means

do all things without complaining, be a light in the world. etc etc.

we do not do these things to get saved, keep our salvation or keep from losing salvation. they are a result of the workmanship God created in us to do.