The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[studier]

See. I am not the only one who sees your non answer and getting frustrated..

It frustrates you not to get answers as you want to hear them. I can see that. I can also see you don't understand answers you get.

Actually, I'm waiting for you to answer some substantive questions re: Scriptures. Here are the links to make it easy for you: #564 and #604 .

Do unbelievers do any work to hear and learn the Gospel?

Do Christians do any work with God in the Salvation process?

Let's get into the language and out of your frustration.

 

[Kroogz]

None of this is simple and apart from admixture.

Yes it is. Bible doctrine is simple. It's the add-on(false doctrines)that makes it complicated.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ......SAVED.

If one doesn't follow and be obedient.......
1 Cor 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Saved....... PERIOD

The only nuances and growth come from growing in His grace and knowledge.

Do not grieve the Spirit.
Do not quench the Spirit.
Be filled with the Spirit.
Walk in the Spirit.....That is a lifetime of study in itself.

But salvation is the moment one believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. Done deal. Finished.

 

[studier]

We both should agree with GW
(and I know I do :^)

Don't we all...

 

[GWH]

Yes it is. Bible doctrine is simple. It's the add-on(false doctrines)that makes it complicated.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ......SAVED.

If one doesn't follow and be obedient.......
1 Cor 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Saved....... PERIOD

The only nuances and growth come from growing in His grace and knowledge.

Do not grieve the Spirit.
Do not quench the Spirit.
Be filled with the Spirit.
Walk in the Spirit.....That is a lifetime of study in itself.

But salvation is the moment one believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. Done deal. Finished.

The Gospel kerygma is simple enough for a young soul to understand (cf. MT 18:3), but didachaic details can become rather complicated and controversial.

Thus, a Christian needs to be humble or Spirit-filled before tackling such issues, keeping in mind that whichever position a Christian takes on any secondary doctrine, he/she should fellowship with those having a different interpretation who affirm the kerygma both verbally and by typically manifesting divine love.

 

[studier]

But salvation is the moment one believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. Done deal. Finished.

Believe it or not, I understand the tradition.

I also know some of the scholarly proponents of it who taught in churches and in seminary and wrote theological journal articles to defend it against other systematics. I've had a few of them in my home at times. I had one of them in my home and asked him ultimately a question of logic about Faith that seemingly left him unresponsive until he finally told me I'd given him something he'd have to go home and think about. I never heard back, nor did I pursue an answer.

It's all about the Text accurately translated and interpreted at this point.

Did I ask you at one point if you'd been taught by RBT or his son?

 

[bluejean_bible]

That post didn't turn out the way I intended.

Everlasting-Grace said:

Yes with the words "they were never of us"
Yes.


John is an amazing apostle.. The first 7 chapters of John is full of eternal security, and the 1st epistle ends with Johns words that we can not we have eternal life..

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

The reply as it should have posted.

If salvation can be lost. we can not know we have eternal life.
I trust Jesus,the bringer of the Good News of Salvation. He said we cannot lose our Salvation.
Which means we are sealed as believers within the assurance if the covenant that tells us our Salvation brings us into eternal life.

If Salvation could be lost I don't think it would qualify to be called, eternal Salvation. Yet,it is said so in the Bible.

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

 

[studier]

The Gospel kerygma is simple enough for a young soul to understand (cf. MT 18:3), but didachaic details can become rather complicated and controversial.

One of the problems it seems to me is that the foundational kerygma (to accommodate you) that is simple has been clouded by didiachaic details that can make it not simple. For me the kerygma is even more simple than what you lay out, and I think we've actually discussed this a bit on one of your threads. But the kerygma has also been oversimplified to make it attractive and seeker friendly to fill pews. IMO this has filled pews with an abundance of darnel and the churches made into entertainment centers to keep them.

 

[Kroogz]

Once again.

WHAT WORK DO YOU THINK WE HAVE TO DO TO MAKE SURE WE ARE SAVED.

How many times do I have to ask. and why are you so afraid to answer?

I have scrolled through. Maybe I missed it.

Did you get your answer on the definitive kind and numbers of works needed so we can get our butts saved?

 

[NightTwister]

Because that is not the point of what is under discussion.

And for the record, I don’t believe John is saying that in 1 John 2:19. He did not say NEVER.

And yet it is the point. You try to rationalize the meaning away because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[Believer08]

The Gospel kerygma is simple enough for a young soul to understand (cf. MT 18:3), but didachaic details can become rather complicated and controversial.

Thus, a Christian needs to be humble or Spirit-filled before tackling such issues, keeping in mind that whichever position a Christian takes on any secondary doctrine, he/she should fellowship with those having a different interpretation who affirm the kerygma both verbally and by typically manifesting divine love.

When should one withdraw from fellowship?

 

[Kroogz]

When should one withdraw from fellowship?

There is NO fellowship between a believer in eternal security and a believer in loss of salvation.....Just a conversation.

Fellowship is only between believers who are filled and walking in the Spirit.....The Holy Spirit is NEVER going to tell a believer," I will leave and forsake you if needed."

 

[sevoldoG]

I’m not replying with any negative intentions. My heart is wide open and cries out to God for you. (Please don’t take that as a passive sarcastic remark, it is true thanks be to God) I went from hating myself and every human being on the planet (I would literally rather see a human dead on the side of the road than an animal) to offering up my salvation to God if it would make things right in the world (I didn’t pray it, but he knows my heart. Although the Spirit did draw me to pray and ask God to make me a martyr to show him how much I love him because of my lack of obedience, which scares the heck out of my flesh if I think about it) but anyway, I have learned from my disobedience that I can NEVER point a finger and say “they’re not of God”. We can (for the biggest part) not really tell who has the gift of eternal life, and who doesn’t. It’s not my situation to figure out, but if you love the Lord, (I can tell you have zeal for your beliefs) then I’m very humbly asking to maybe look over the doctrine of Justification Solely by Faith with an open mind and heart, and just see if it hits any mark or light in your heart. It’s just a suggestion not a passive demand. I would take a lower estate to raise you up my dear brother. Please give it a shot (just for shi+# and giggles if anything else) you will be in my prayers.

Now I say this with my heart wide for you. But a little firmer approach. Please be careful in what you claim to be truth and what you claim to be lies in doctrine. There are sins, and there are abominations to the Lord, and getting it wrong and misleading his children is a big big no no.
please consider my request. God bless you and all you love.

 

[HeIsHere]

OSAS is a systematic/theology based on the premise of PERSEVERANCE of the believer.....The Arminian and the calvies base their beliefs off of this system.

Just to clarify, because I was not aware of this, and I did a bit of quick research and found that it does not come from the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance of the saints, do you have a source for this connection?

 

[studier]

When should one withdraw from fellowship?

That's a great question. Have you had it in your spirit to withdraw from any? I have several times and have followed that leading.

 

[studier]

There is NO fellowship between a believer in eternal security and a believer in loss of salvation.....Just a conversation.

Fellowship is only between believers who are filled and walking in the Spirit.....The Holy Spirit is NEVER going to tell a believer," I will leave and forsake you if needed."

It seems there's only cliquish fellowship among believers in our time and that the only foundation becomes obscured. Then again, Paul speaks of this issue in 1Cor3.

What's interesting about your comment is that my walk and being led pressed upon me to leave the camp you're in. It seems the Holy Spirit is doing some interesting leading among us all.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I know OSAS is a mess and not just of the "Calvies" but also of the Free Grace ("FG") camp that is opposed to them and to the "Armins."

Grace is not free. it had a great cost. the cost of the son of God coming to earth. living 33 years on earth, suffering greatly at the hand of the romans and Jews. and then hung on a cross.

I hope you know when people say stuff like this they are in essence mocking the cross and acting as if Jesus did not really do anythying, What he did was ok, but not enough, we have to do our part.. (even though there is nothing you could do)

I know that OSAS is also nomenclature used by parts of FG or to describe their systematic theology.

None of this is simple and apart from admixture.

Oh it is simple. in fact it is seen in one passage. God so loved the world. he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him, will never perish but will live forever (has eternal life)

It is the legalist that makers it difficult. But they take what God calls the simplicity in Christ and make a mockery of it.

I would head pauls warning about how like the serpent deceived Eve, that we can be deceived to turn away from the simplicity in Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

I didn't refer to ES in that terminology because I wanted to remain at least a bit closer to the Text. I actually wondered if someone would bring it up. I'm not surprised that you did.

You know at least some of the Textual issues I have with TULIP and I know and actually appreciate your bottom lining them with words like "insidious". I've mostly just left such posts to you and to others who have done similarly.

My track in all of this, actually all of Theology now, is to forget all the systematics (which I was either aggressively taught and/or exposed to for years) and just to be looking at Scripture which ultimately is there to bring all of us into line with the mind of Christ in Christ in Spirit.

It's my experience both in my own thinking and in teaching and discussing with others that there is a lot of erroneous systematic tradition out there that has shaped people's thinking to where they read right over and past the Scripture let alone eisegete it. I've also stated many times, maybe and maybe not here, that in studies and discussions, both face-to-face and on forums, I've come to see "works salvation" as a point <> counterpoint so impassioned that both sides make errors.

so again, What works do you think we must do to save ourselves? Since you reject not only eternal security, but that the gift of salvation was covered at Great Cost to God. but at great mercy to us?

 

[GWH]

One of the problems it seems to me is that the foundational kerygma (to accommodate you) that is simple has been clouded by didiachaic details that can make it not simple. For me the kerygma is even more simple than what you lay out, and I think we've actually discussed this a bit on one of your threads. But the kerygma has also been oversimplified to make it attractive and seeker friendly to fill pews. IMO this has filled pews with an abundance of darnel and the churches made into entertainment centers to keep them.

Okay, but my memory fails me and I am intrigued by what you think is the happy medium between being simpler than the creed I have shared and being oversimplified, so please explain/share your version of the kerygma/GRFS.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It frustrates you not to get answers as you want to hear them. I can see that. I can also see you don't understand answers you get.

Actually, I'm waiting for you to answer some substantive questions re: Scriptures. Here are the links to make it easy for you: #564 and #604 .

Do unbelievers do any work to hear and learn the Gospel?

Do Christians do any work with God in the Salvation process?

Let's get into the language and out of your frustration.

Once again

WHEN YOU TELL ME WHAT WORKS YOU THINK WE HAVE TO DO TO GET SAVED. I will answer those questions.

We are not playing kids games here my friend. You made a point that salvation is not free. we must work.. So explain to me what WORK we have to do.

Or I will just assume you can't answer me, and your just here to play games. (your not the first person to come into a Christian chat room and make points against others. but never be able to back your points up with true living examples..

You can not just say you have to work. then not tell people what WORK they must do. Unless your afraid that if you answer them, you will be exposed.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes it is. Bible doctrine is simple. It's the add-on(false doctrines)that makes it complicated.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ......SAVED.

If one doesn't follow and be obedient.......
1 Cor 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Saved....... PERIOD

The only nuances and growth come from growing in His grace and knowledge.

Do not grieve the Spirit.
Do not quench the Spirit.
Be filled with the Spirit.
Walk in the Spirit.....That is a lifetime of study in itself.

But salvation is the moment one believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. Done deal. Finished.

Amen

"It is finished" Paid in full.. He completed the work of salvation.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The Gospel kerygma is simple enough for a young soul to understand (cf. MT 18:3), but didachaic details can become rather complicated and controversial.

Thus, a Christian needs to be humble or Spirit-filled before tackling such issues, keeping in mind that whichever position a Christian takes on any secondary doctrine, he/she should fellowship with those having a different interpretation who affirm the kerygma both verbally and by typically manifesting divine love.

The gospel of salvation is not a secondary doctrine

Get it right you will spend eternity with Christ. Get it wrong, by even one point. you will spend an eternity in Hell