The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”
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I'm breaking in here.
I haven't read everything you've written, and I entered into this thread late.
How is your explanation any different than what Jesus commanded - "do it" / work to get fed (which in a way sounds even more meritorious)?
Here is the language just using the basic sense of the present tense:
Yes, Jesus is talking about spiritual food - the Good News of who He is.
And Jesus is commanding these unbelievers to work for the information He's teaching about Himself. This is what the Text clearly says, and I came to see it's a mistake to explain it away as if He didn't command unbelievers to work to hear and learn from the Father as Jesus will soon explain in regard to the Father's drawing men to come to Jesus.
I simply don't reconcile Jesus to Paul but Paul to Jesus. In the end it's really that simple.
Yes, it is the Spirit/Words/Life/which gives Life and Jesus gives EL and the 'by grace salvation through faith" is the Father's gift. Whatever we've been commanded to do and have done in the receipt of the Gift is not worthy of a wage and nothing we are to boast about. But to say we have done nothing is not accurate and also leads to problems.
In effect, yes, Jesus did command unbelievers to work to get saved - to work to hear and learn then believe and He will give eternal life (there's also some more to add here but not now). This is quite different than Paul dealing with works of law.
It's really just another of those times that God commanded men to believe in His Son. And this is why the discussion has to go into what Faith is and how it is spoken of in the Text in effect as a two-sided coin with Obedience as the other side. And this is why I asked earlier about your phrase "works of obedience" (as I recall).
I expect you to continue kicking and being rude. I kicked against some of these Scriptures for some time also until I decided to just let the Text say what it/He says and let go of what others had taught me. That took place after I became proficient in translating myself and a few other things happened that convinced me to sit in relative isolation for years and do my own work asking for His help.
FWIW, in regard to the languages, I completely understand what you meant about men who know them remaining in disagreements. During what I recall was my last year in language training when we were doing practical translating and interpreting, we had just completed work in one of the Thess letters as I recall. It seemed everyone was pretty happy with themselves, and the professor asked about a section that I had been troubled by and had done some extra work in for that reason. We all knew what the language and grammar said down to the level of every word and clausal structure. But the professor asked what a certain verse meant. The room went silent and the deer in the headlights look was everywhere. No one answered. Being the old guy in the room and having already given it some thought during my translation and interpreting work, I answered him. He agreed. Moral of the story is that language work is not always the end of the story.
Moral of our story at this point from my perspective is that theological traditional instruction is not really the end of the story, and it typically makes some into aggressive camp-based soldiers.
We can get deeper into the language of John6:27 and close context if you'd like. I assume you are able to discuss not only word definitions but some parsing issues and resultant meanings of words and phrases.
Differences like the ones we see here will come into discussion:
NKJ John 6:28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
NET John 6:28 So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?"
ESV John 6:28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
I haven't read everything you've written, and I entered into this thread late.
How is your explanation any different than what Jesus commanded - "do it" / work to get fed (which in a way sounds even more meritorious)?
Here is the language just using the basic sense of the present tense:
- Do not work [for] the food [that] perishes
- Rather, [work for] the food [that] lasts into eternal life
- which the Son of Man will give [to] you
Yes, Jesus is talking about spiritual food - the Good News of who He is.
And Jesus is commanding these unbelievers to work for the information He's teaching about Himself. This is what the Text clearly says, and I came to see it's a mistake to explain it away as if He didn't command unbelievers to work to hear and learn from the Father as Jesus will soon explain in regard to the Father's drawing men to come to Jesus.
I simply don't reconcile Jesus to Paul but Paul to Jesus. In the end it's really that simple.
Yes, it is the Spirit/Words/Life/which gives Life and Jesus gives EL and the 'by grace salvation through faith" is the Father's gift. Whatever we've been commanded to do and have done in the receipt of the Gift is not worthy of a wage and nothing we are to boast about. But to say we have done nothing is not accurate and also leads to problems.
In effect, yes, Jesus did command unbelievers to work to get saved - to work to hear and learn then believe and He will give eternal life (there's also some more to add here but not now). This is quite different than Paul dealing with works of law.
It's really just another of those times that God commanded men to believe in His Son. And this is why the discussion has to go into what Faith is and how it is spoken of in the Text in effect as a two-sided coin with Obedience as the other side. And this is why I asked earlier about your phrase "works of obedience" (as I recall).
I expect you to continue kicking and being rude. I kicked against some of these Scriptures for some time also until I decided to just let the Text say what it/He says and let go of what others had taught me. That took place after I became proficient in translating myself and a few other things happened that convinced me to sit in relative isolation for years and do my own work asking for His help.
FWIW, in regard to the languages, I completely understand what you meant about men who know them remaining in disagreements. During what I recall was my last year in language training when we were doing practical translating and interpreting, we had just completed work in one of the Thess letters as I recall. It seemed everyone was pretty happy with themselves, and the professor asked about a section that I had been troubled by and had done some extra work in for that reason. We all knew what the language and grammar said down to the level of every word and clausal structure. But the professor asked what a certain verse meant. The room went silent and the deer in the headlights look was everywhere. No one answered. Being the old guy in the room and having already given it some thought during my translation and interpreting work, I answered him. He agreed. Moral of the story is that language work is not always the end of the story.
Moral of our story at this point from my perspective is that theological traditional instruction is not really the end of the story, and it typically makes some into aggressive camp-based soldiers.
We can get deeper into the language of John6:27 and close context if you'd like. I assume you are able to discuss not only word definitions but some parsing issues and resultant meanings of words and phrases.
Differences like the ones we see here will come into discussion:
NKJ John 6:28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
NET John 6:28 So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?"
ESV John 6:28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
If one does not agree with God on this foundational objective truth, saved is saved, I am not sure how one can understand and come into agreement with God on the deeper truths.
Those who add in obedience live on the debt side, best they repent, have a change of mind and come to the paid in full side.
Those who add in obedience live on the debt side, best they repent, have a change of mind and come to the paid in full side.
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The biblical account of the prodigal son should teach people that a person can be lost and yet be saved again. It plainly says “was lost and is found”.
The prodigal son was saved by being in his father’s house. He turned away, he was lost. But when he came to himself, he returned back to his father.
Luke 15:24 NKJV
for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:32 NKJV
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.'"
But nooooo…OSAS will explain it away just like they do every other passage.
The prodigal son was saved by being in his father’s house. He turned away, he was lost. But when he came to himself, he returned back to his father.
Luke 15:24 NKJV
for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:32 NKJV
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.'"
But nooooo…OSAS will explain it away just like they do every other passage.
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I sadly think it glaringly obvious why they can't say it.
I stick with my view that those who are not saved can think they are, but those who are saved in truth can not be ignorant of their salvation. You can't be completely transformed by the power of God and not know it.
If you are saved in truth you will not walk away. This is how John could say that and how we can too. The only situation that can pop up that involves someone who thinks they're saved and walks away, proves they where never saved by walking away. This is foolishness to those who have never been saved, so if this doesn't make sense to them, then they may want to do some inward reflection and self evaluation, some soul seeking and looking for Him. If you are saved in truth then you cannot walk away. That simple.
I stick with my view that those who are not saved can think they are, but those who are saved in truth can not be ignorant of their salvation. You can't be completely transformed by the power of God and not know it.
If you are saved in truth you will not walk away. This is how John could say that and how we can too. The only situation that can pop up that involves someone who thinks they're saved and walks away, proves they where never saved by walking away. This is foolishness to those who have never been saved, so if this doesn't make sense to them, then they may want to do some inward reflection and self evaluation, some soul seeking and looking for Him. If you are saved in truth then you cannot walk away. That simple.
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There is no explaining it away. It's fellowship not salvation. If it was about salvation....We would see a sinner, not a son coming to the father. And the Father would say, " Believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved."
Whenever we grieve or quench the Spirit......We lose fellowship, not salvation. If we lost salvation, the command would be ......Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
Whenever we grieve or quench the Spirit......We lose fellowship, not salvation. If we lost salvation, the command would be ......Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
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19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
Not - They were not part of us, if they were they would have not departed.
Common sense says this literally means never of us.
Not - They were not part of us, if they were they would have not departed.
Common sense says this literally means never of us.