My KJV Debate with Jeffrey Dollar

[keepingthingsreal]

I think that the problem arises, not with words that we don't use any more (we can easily look their meanings up), but in words that are still in use today, but with different meanings to what they had when the KJV was translated. An example is the word "prevent." Now, that word means to stop something happening. But it doesn't mean that in the KJV. For example:

Ps 88:13 But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee.

The Psalmist doesn't mean that his prayer will stop God doing something. "Prevent" used to mean "go before" or "come before."

I see this as a bigger problem than obsolete words, because as "prevent" is in everyday use still, a reader of the KJV won't know that it had a different meaning back then.

Hey, David.

What you have stated here could definitely be a problem. Regarding the word "prevent," we see a similar example in the New Testament.

1Th 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here, the word "prevent" similarly means "precede" in that the dead in Christ will get their glorified bodies slightly before those who will yet be alive at that point in time.

This said, this still need not necessarily be a problem. Again, if one is truly being led by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, then the Holy Spirit can easily prompt them to look up the meanings of words. I can attest that I have been prompted to do the same many times myself.

Furthermore, in many instances, the newer translations use the same words that the KJV does which had totally different meanings when the Bible was written than they do today, so this criticism is by no means limited to the KJV. One such example would be the word "adoption." In Paul's day, it had a different meaning than it does today, yet many Bible versions still use that same word today, and it has caused a lot of confusion within professing Christendom.

https://biblehub.com/romans/8-15.htm

 

[DavidLamb]

Chosen to believe is not the individual actually believing....just saying...

True, but elsewhere we are told that the natural man (the sinner dead in trespasses and sins) cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, so how can the natural man believe those things?

 

[HeIsHere]

No they don't. They deny that sinful man has the ability in himself to exercise faith - they need God to work on their hearts. They look at verses such as Ephesians 2:4-5 as supporting this:

“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),” (Eph 2:4-5 NKJV)

It is the sinful person that needs to exercise faith in the all saving work of Christ Jesus to receive the gift of salvation so not sure why the obvious needs to be stated.

Belief/Faith precedes regeneration that is the scriptural order.
Anyway, best the thread not become another thread about the hidden Gospel revealed to only a few.

 

[fredoheaven]

I would not necessarily call this particular example "heretical," but it has caused millions of people throughout the years, including our very own day and age, to believe in something that is totally untrue, and that is never going to happen.

Jhn 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

"Mansions" is a terrible translation. The Greek word simply means "room," "dwelling," or "abode," and this is how most other Bible versions properly translate it. In fact, this Greek word only appears twice in the underlying text of the New Testament, and the other time is in this same chapter of John where it is properly translated as "abode" in the KJV.

Jhn 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that Jesus is building "mansions" for believers in heaven, which is what people have ridiculously turned "my Father's house" into due to this terrible translation. Everywhere in scripture, including in this same gospel of John, the "Father's house" is a temple in Jerusalem.

Jhn 2:13
And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Jhn 2:14
And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Jhn 2:15
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Jhn 2:16
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Jhn 2:17
And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

In John chapter 14, Jesus told the tiny and specific group of disciples who he was actually talking to that when he returns there will be rooms for them in his Father's house or in the temple in Jerusalem in which he will be reigning at that time. Now, due to a terrible translation, people are believing in something totally different which is never going to occur. Not only this, but they are singing about it in many churches while reciting the partly fictitious words of "Victory in Jesus." Do you believe that God inspired this nonsense? I do not because God is neither a liar nor the author of confusion.
You are erroneous in this belief because my own in-depth research covered about 20 years of my life.
Why would I be bent on wanting to see errors in the KJV when I have been reading it for more than 30 years? In reality, it is KJV Onlyists who have repeatedly shown a stubborn unwillingness to admit that the KJV is translated very poorly in certain instances.

I just don't know if you really made an in-depth study as in the case of John 14:2 over the word "mansion" in the Kjb which you you seem to be an extremely bad translation. Have you even wondered, that even the word "terrible" can be used to mean an awe inspiring? Well, ca you give your reasons as to why it is a bad translation? And what should be your appropriate translations then? Your justification over God's house is not indeed a right support since your premise is about the translation of the word " mansion". Would you enlighten us? Thanks

 

[HeIsHere]

yes, they believe you first be made alive (in sin) so you can have the ability to believe otherwise. you have no ability to believe

Thank you.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I disagree about "baptize". It is an English word, though based on a Greek one.

Baptize is not a native english word. It is transliterated from the greek word Baptizo (they removed the O and changed it to an E and made up a totally new english word)

The problem is. you have to look at the greek interpretation to get the true meaning. Not the english. because it is not a native english word. hence we have so many false doctrines which come from this one word which was never translated to english

Many English words have their origin in another language (anorak, shampoo, brioche, to give just three examples), but they are still English words.

I agree that "tongue" was used for "language." And "verily" of course means "truly".

But those weren't the type of words I was thinking of in my previous post. I was thinking of words still in use in English, but with different meanings, words like "prevent," "suffer," (as in "Suffer the little children to come unto Me,") and "carriages" (as in: Ac 21:15 And after those days we took up our carriages, and went up to Jerusalem.).

There is alot of words at issue, especially with the older english translations that have not been updated to modern english

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No they don't. They deny that sinful man has the ability in himself to exercise faith

Which is what we have been saying

- they need God to work on their hearts. They look at verses such as Ephesians 2:4-5 as supporting this:

Again, which is what we have been saying

“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),” (Eph 2:4-5 NKJV)

Made us alive, saved. all accomplished by grace THROUGH FAITH.

Not before faith.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Hey, David.

What you have stated here could definitely be a problem. Regarding the word "prevent," we see a similar example in the New Testament.

1Th 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here, the word "prevent" similarly means "precede" in that the dead in Christ will get their glorified bodies slightly before those who will yet be alive at that point in time.

This said, this still need not necessarily be a problem. Again, if one is truly being led by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, then the Holy Spirit can easily prompt them to look up the meanings of words. I can attest that I have been prompted to do the same many times myself.

Furthermore, in many instances, the newer translations use the same words that the KJV does which had totally different meanings when the Bible was written than they do today, so this criticism is by no means limited to the KJV. One such example would be the word "adoption." In Paul's day, it had a different meaning than it does today, yet many Bible versions still use that same word today, and it has caused a lot of confusion within professing Christendom.

https://biblehub.com/romans/8-15.htm

is a 20 year old who is reading this going to look up a word that he knows already the meaning?

Why would we risk such a thing? Just bring it to modern language

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

True, but elsewhere we are told that the natural man (the sinner dead in trespasses and sins) cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, so how can the natural man believe those things?

Because God is teaching them, God is correcting them, God is exposing them, And God is leading them.

what they do with this will determine their eternity

its been this way since Adam

 

[Dino246]

I disagree about "baptize". It is an English word, though based on a Greek one. Many English words have their origin in another language (anorak, shampoo, brioche, to give just three examples), but they are still English words.

I agree that "tongue" was used for "language." And "verily" of course means "truly".

But those weren't the type of words I was thinking of in my previous post. I was thinking of words still in use in English, but with different meanings, words like "prevent," "suffer," (as in "Suffer the little children to come unto Me,") and "carriages" (as in: Ac 21:15 And after those days we took up our carriages, and went up to Jerusalem.).

Dr. Mark Ward calls these “false friends”.

 

[John146]

True, but elsewhere we are told that the natural man (the sinner dead in trespasses and sins) cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, so how can the natural man believe those things?

The preaching of the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Don't underestimate the power of the word of God.

 

[HeIsHere]

True, but elsewhere we are told that the natural man (the sinner dead in trespasses and sins) cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, so how can the natural man believe those things?

In context this is not speaking to understanding/responding to the "Gospel" message.

 

[HeIsHere]

The preaching of the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Don't underestimate the power of the word of God.

Amen!

 

[keepingthingsreal]

is a 20 year old who is reading this going to look up a word that he knows already the meaning?

Why would we risk such a thing? Just bring it to modern language

Did you even read my post?

The new versions with the "modern language" use words that had different meanings in the past than they do now.

Are you going to speak a word against any of those versions?

Quite frankly, the only thing that several of you (on both sides of the argument) are proving is that you hypocritically employ double standards. In other words, you do not apply the same standards of critique to yourselves/your beliefs that you do to others. This is precisely why I stated in an earlier response that these types of conversations are just a giant waste of time.

 

[Magenta]

Anyway, best the thread not become another thread about the hidden Gospel revealed to only a few.

You brought it up.

 

[Magenta]

good morning sis. Glad to see you.

Actually what he said is not totally incorrect.

Of course it is. If nobody could believe, nobody would. She deliberately leaves out that it is the natural man that is incapable.

 

[Cameron143]

You brought it up.

To only a few is another falsehood, when heaven is clearly said to be inhabited by a number that no man can number.

 

[Blain]

on the topic of bible translations I wonder how would one treat a new believer in Christ when it comes to this? because we cannot expect one to be able to go to the original greek language to be able to learn God's truths and we cannot simply indoctrinate a new believer to just one version like the kjv or else we are creating another kjv only cult member

So are such discussions dangerous to new believers? how would we safely explain such a topoc to a new believer

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I would not necessarily call this particular example "heretical," but it has caused millions of people throughout the years, including our very own day and age, to believe in something that is totally untrue, and that is never going to happen.

Jhn 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

"Mansions" is a terrible translation. The Greek word simply means "room," "dwelling," or "abode," and this is how most other Bible versions properly translate it. In fact, this Greek word only appears twice in the underlying text of the New Testament, and the other time is in this same chapter of John where it is properly translated as "abode" in the KJV.

Jhn 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that Jesus is building "mansions" for believers in heaven, which is what people have ridiculously turned "my Father's house" into due to this terrible translation. Everywhere in scripture, including in this same gospel of John, the "Father's house" is a temple in Jerusalem.

Jhn 2:13
And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Jhn 2:14
And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Jhn 2:15
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Jhn 2:16
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Jhn 2:17
And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

In John chapter 14, Jesus told the tiny and specific group of disciples who he was actually talking to that when he returns there will be rooms for them in his Father's house or in the temple in Jerusalem in which he will be reigning at that time. Now, due to a terrible translation, people are believing in something totally different which is never going to occur. Not only this, but they are singing about it in many churches while reciting the partly fictitious words of "Victory in Jesus." Do you believe that God inspired this nonsense? I do not because God is neither a liar nor the author of confusion.
You are erroneous in this belief because my own in-depth research covered about 20 years of my life.
Why would I be bent on wanting to see errors in the KJV when I have been reading it for more than 30 years? In reality, it is KJV Onlyists who have repeatedly shown a stubborn unwillingness to admit that the KJV is translated very poorly in certain instances.

Scripture provides evidence that things in Heaven are larger and greater than their earthly counterparts.

1. The Tabernacle and Temple as Shadows of a Greater Reality:

• Hebrews 8:2, 5 – "(Jesus is) a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. [...] Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount."
• The earthly tabernacle and temple were only shadows of a greater, heavenly structure. If they were merely patterns, then the heavenly temple must be far larger and more magnificent.

2. New Jerusalem Compared to Earthly Jerusalem:

• Revelation 21:2, 10, 16 – "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [...] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. [...] And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."
• The New Jerusalem is vastly larger than the earthly Jerusalem, measuring 12,000 furlongs (approximately 1,500 miles) in length, width, and height—dwarfing any earthly city.
• This supports the pattern that heavenly structures or realities are far greater in scope and size than their earthly counterparts.

3. The Earthly and Heavenly Eden:

• Genesis 2:8-10 describes the Garden of Eden as a paradise on Earth, with a river flowing from it.
• Revelation 22:1-2 describes a far greater Edenic scene in Heaven, with the river of life flowing from the throne of God in the New Jerusalem, along with the tree of life bearing fruit every month.
• This suggests that while Eden was a paradise on Earth, the heavenly version is vastly larger and more glorious, directly connected to God’s throne and eternal life.

Also, the Greek word, which means “abode” can refer to a large structure or to a vast spiritual dimension.

• Ai Khanoum Inscription (3rd century BCE) – μονή refers to a large temple (~4,305 sq. ft.), which can mean grand dwellings in John 14:2.
• Oxus Temple Inscription (3rd–2nd century BCE) – μονή describes a massive 27,000+ sq. ft. temple, which can mean the idea of large, substantial abodes in heaven.
• Philo of Alexandria (1st century CE, De Cherubim 24) – μονή signifies divine abodes with God, aligning with the grandeur of heavenly mansions.
• Plato’s Phaedo (81c-d) – μονή refers to pure, eternal abodes for purified souls, supporting the scope of the majesty of heavenly mansions.

There are also verses that strongly tell us that we will be rewarded greatly:
(A small room or apartment is not really our idea of a great reward, but it would be a downgrade):

• Matthew 19:29 (KJV) – The Hundredfold Reward
  • God's rewards surpass anything sacrificed on earth.
  • A "hundredfold" return suggests vast, abundant, and grand provisions, reinforcing the idea of large, glorious dwellings in heaven.
• Matthew 5:11-12 (KJV) – A Great Reward in Heaven
  • "Great is your reward in heaven" implies something magnificent and abundant.
  • Just as God honored the prophets, He will provide a reward befitting their faithfulness, supporting the concept of heavenly mansions rather than small dwellings.
• 1 Corinthians 2:9 (KJV) – The Unimaginable Glory of Heaven
  • What God has prepared is beyond human comprehension.
  • The mansions in heaven symbolize immeasurable joy, glory, and divine splendor, far exceeding earthly understanding.

To check out my PDF for these Greek references in more detail, you can check that out here.

I hope it helps, and may God bless you.


….

 

[John146]

on the topic of bible translations I wonder how would one treat a new believer in Christ when it comes to this? because we cannot expect one to be able to go to the original greek language to be able to learn God's truths and we cannot simply indoctrinate a new believer to just one version like the kjv or else we are creating another kjv only cult member

So are such discussions dangerous to new believers? how would we safely explain such a topoc to a new believer

Your question summarizes the entire issue. With no final authority to go to, there is confusion. Surely, this is not God's desire.