My KJV Debate with Jeffrey Dollar

keepingthingsreal · Monday at 2:05 PM

I am no prophet, but I could have easily called that one. Normally, I try to reason with people. In his case, he is so messed up that I put him on ignore 2 or 3 days ago. Hopefully, in his absence, God will get a hold of him. He is so far gone that if God does not personally show him the error of his ways, then he will never listen to what anybody else has to say. It is sad, but some people cause their own predicaments.

Bible_Highlighter · Monday at 3:35 PM

Dino246 said:

What you stated is a misconception of reality, my friend. I have run into Christians who believe false doctrines and they then point to a Modern Bible as their proof. So no. There are instances where God does not step in and just force change their mind. This is a real battle that you are simply not aware of.

...

Everlasting-Grace · Monday at 3:55 PM

Dino246 said:

It's unfortunate that the premise of the debate is not even stated until after the nine minute mark. The premise is "Is it biblically mandated to exclusively use the KJV in English-speaking churches?"

Frankly, given that, there was no need for the debate; neither the KJV nor "English-speaking churches" are mentioned in Scripture.

If that weren't enough, the premise UTTERLY fails because English-speaking churches existed over 100 years before the publication of the KJV.

Next time, consider the wording of the premise before wasting your time preparing.

at least I know I do not have to listen now.

studentoftheword · Monday at 4:18 PM

I think Bible Highlighter that before you debate --you kneed to look up the words in
1 Peter 2:2 in the Greek and see what they mean from the King James Bible -----

God gives a warning to anyone who adds or takes away from His word as was given by His inspiration ----so no matter who's Bible you read they all should say the same thing -----or I would want to be that translator who added or took away from what God inspired to be written down ---

Deuteronomy 2 King James v

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Revelation 22:18-19

King James Version

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

so lets look at your scripture here ---

1 Peter 2:2
KJ
as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the Word, that ye may grow thereby,

Greek word for desire
Strong's Lexicon
epithumia: Desire, lust, longing
eagerness for, inordinate desire, lust., to long for.
desire, craving, longing:

here is same scripture using different word which come under the Greek meaning of Desire

EHV
Like newborn babies, crave ---using crave instead of desire means the same in Greek

ESV
Like newborn infants, long for ---word long means the sames as desire in Greek ----

All scripture saying the same thing -----means the same thing as KJV

Next word in KJV Sincere

Greek word

Strong's Lexicon
anupokritos: Sincere, genuine,
pure, sincere, unsullied ,
simple, absolute ,unfeigned, undisguised

AMP
like newborn babies [you should] long for the pure milk of the word----same as sincere in KJV

ASV
as newborn babes, long for the spiritual milk which is without guile,----undisguised ---same as sincere

Next work ---Grow ---in KJV

Greek word for Grow

Strong's Lexicon
auxanó: To grow, increase, become greater

The Greek verb "auxanó" primarily means to grow or increase. It is used in the New Testament to describe both physical growth and spiritual or metaphorical increase. the idea of spiritual maturity and the expansion of the faith.
to authentic discipleship. Indeed, the Lord requires non-stop progress (development) in the life of faith.
to the attaining of salvation, 1 Peter 2:2.

So this is your KJV
1 Peter 2:2
KJ
as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the Word, that ye may grow thereby,

and here are other translations ---they all have the the same meaning ----they have to or God will deal with the translators in a very unkind manner when they pass on ---I am sure the translators know they cannot change God's words to suit themselves -----

Christian Standard Bible
Like newborn infants, desire the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow up into your salvation,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Like newborn infants, desire the pure spiritual milk, so that you may grow by it for your salvation,

American Standard Version
as newborn babes, long for the spiritual milk which is without guile, that ye may grow thereby unto salvation;

Saying the KNV is the right one is unsupported

keepingthingsreal · Monday at 4:32 PM

Bible_Highlighter said:

So have I, but I could say the same thing for people who use the KJV.

Personally, I believe that the KJV is the best English translation of the Bible, and that is based upon many years of my own research. However, nobody will ever convince me that the KJV has been perfectly translated into English because there are quite a few horrible mistranslations in it.

maxwel · Monday at 4:59 PM

Dino246 said:

Agree.
I immediately felt the wording of the proposition was essentially self defeating to the affirmative position.

For the record:
I enjoy reading the KJV, and I have many dear friends that are KJV ONLY people.
Many of them know the Bible extremely well,
and they're extraordinary Christians...
but a bad argument is still a bad argument.
.

John146 · Monday at 5:13 PM

Dino246 said:

Where is this original language you speak of?

Bible_Highlighter · Monday at 5:55 PM

Everlasting-Grace said:

Ah, yes. Ignorance is bliss.
This is the same problem I have with the Democratic Left.
They are simply unwilling to do their own homework and look at both sides objectively.
Are you a Democrat who hates Trump by any chance?

....

Dino246 · Monday at 6:43 PM

Bible_Highlighter said:

While I admit that I'm not aware of such cases, I still hold that the translation (by itself) is rarely the core problem.

Dino246 · Monday at 6:45 PM

John146 said:

Please, do your own research instead of repeating these tired tropes.

Bible_Highlighter · Monday at 6:46 PM

studentoftheword said:

I did. However, I did not put in all the textual changes because there was limited time to double confirm my findings.
If all goes well, I will update my slides of the textual differences and make them all available for you to download hopefully by March 6th-8th. They will be Powerpoint slides. I will also do a new presentation of my slide with these updated changes and read my slide more slowly.

You said:

Apparently, you do not seem to understand that there are two major lines of Bibles in use today.

#1. The KJV is from the Textus Receptus Greek Tradition for the New Testament.
The Greek of the New Testament underlying the KJV is 99.99% of the Greek from Beza's 5th major edition (1598).
There is only about 20 or so translatable differences that the KJV Translators did not go with in the Beza Greek.

#2. Most of all your Modern English Bibles are based on the Nestle and Aland Greek for the New Testament (Which is currently in its 28th edition and there will be another in the future). A critical text advocate named Eldon Epp did a comparative study and found that the Nestle and Aland Greek is barely any different than the 1881 Westcott and Hort Greek text (Which was used for the first Modern English Bible (the English Revised Version) of the current Modern Bible Movement). The ERV (English Revised Version) was supposed to just be a simply KJV update, but Westcott and Hort snuck in their artificial never-before-seen Greek text by attempting to smash together the two Greek manuscripts Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.

The differences between the Beza Greek, and the Nestle and Aland (or Westcott and Hort 1881 Greek) is very significant.

Codex Sinaiticus (ℵ) has a reading out of order that basically tells us that Jesus died by the spear and He did not upon the cross.
There are 3,000 places in the gospels alone that Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus disagree with each other.

You said:

While I did not look at your Greek example yet, you have to be careful with James Strong's concordance. Both KJV advocates and critical text advocates do not consider Strong's Lexicon to always be right. James Strong was a reviser and he never later spoke against what Westcott and Hort did like Scrivener later did.

Both Dean Burgon and Scrivener warned against Westcott and Hort's 1881 works (the ERV and their Greek text).
Burgon was a Majority Text advocate, and Scrivener was faithful to the KJV / Textus Receptus in the fact that he did not change any readings in His KJV Cambridge Bible or his Scrivener Greek Text, but he did have doubts about certain readings in the KJV / TR. So they were not like die hard loyalists of the KJV / TR and yet they were ringing the bells to warn people against what Westcott and Hort did.
Bot
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Bible_Highlighter · Monday at 6:49 PM

Dino246 said:

I will make a note of this and try to find those posts from the other forums in the upcoming weeks (Lord willing).
I have a lot on my agenda the next couple of weeks.
Gonna go to the Bible Museum and Spy Museum hopefully starting this Wednesday.

....

Bible_Highlighter · Monday at 6:59 PM

keepingthingsreal said:

I have not made a categorization of the level of seriousness of the changed doctrines in Modern Bibles, but I am considering in doing so as a part of my writeup. Can you name any heretical ones off the top of your head for the KJV? Modern Bibles make it appear like Jesus sins, and I had a Christian tell me that he believes Jesus sinned and they pointed to a Modern Bible. I had Christians tell me Jesus had a beginning, and I think some of them are not big fans of the KJV. This should not be shocking because certain Modern Bibles (like the NASB, etc.) teach that Jesus had a beginning. I have ran into many Christians who think Jesus did not have active power during His earthly ministry. While not exactly heretical, it is still very serious, and they point to Modern Bibles to prove their case.

You said:

I believe that you did not properly seek out apologetics for what you perceived as an error. There were many times where I encountered what looked like an error at first glance and was not under further study and investigation and prayer from God. But if one is bent on wanting to see errors in the KJV, then they are never going to see it, even if they are shown the truth.

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Dino246 · Monday at 7:08 PM

Bible_Highlighter said:

Don't bother unless you treat the KJV with exactly the same degree of critical assessment. Use ONE set of measures, not differing measures depending on your personal preference.

Start with an objective standard for the text, and that is NOT the KJV itself. The KJV is not the standard used for creating modern translations, and it is unreasonable to use it to measure them. Otherwise, the only conclusion you can legitimately draw is that there are differences, not that either is correct and the other incorrect.

Bible_Highlighter said:

And if one is bent on there being no errors in the KJV, they won't see them, even if they are shown the truth. We saw this happen this past week on this very forum.

John146 · Monday at 7:16 PM

Dino246 said:

The originals contained translations. We have no idea what the originals said. All we have is the translation.

Bible_Highlighter · Monday at 7:19 PM

studentoftheword said:

The proper way to see the differences.
I would look to the following sources.

For the KJV underlying original languages:

Hebrew and Greek for KJV (70 bucks):
Sword Searcher Software (PC only - but you can run on Windows using Parallels software for your MAC).
This has the underlying texts for the KJV (Which provides the Ben Chayyim 1524-1525 and 1881 Scrivener Greek).
(Note: If you only have a MAC, additional costs for Windows and Parallels would need to added).

99.99% of the Greek for KJV (Free):
Beza 1598 Greek can be found at:
https://textusreceptusbibles.com/Beza
(Note: The Scrivener Greek merely shows where the KJV Translators followed the Beza and did not follow the Beza Greek. Again the differences are very minimal. The KJV Translators still primarily followed the Beza 1598 Greek).

For the the underlying original languages of Modern English Bibles:

Hebrew for Modern Bibles (Free):
This is the BHS (Which is a different Hebrew text than the one that underlies the KJV):
https://www.die-bibel.de/en/bible/BHS/GEN.1

Greek for Modern Bibles: (170 bucks):
Accordance Bible Software:
(If you were to just purchase the software itself, and Vaticanus and Sinaiticus individually)
https://www.accordancebible.com/
https://www.accordancebible.com/product/codex-vaticanus/
https://www.accordancebible.com/product/codex-sinaiticus/

Screen capture the Greek and Hebrew and have ChatGPT analyze the original language words.
There are different spellings and sometimes different words in the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus but means the same thing in the Beza. But there are times that that the text or words are not in the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus when the Beza Greek has them.

ChatGPT:
https://chatgpt.com/

Note:

ChatGPT can be biased towards the Critical Text definitions. So you do have to be careful.
Monogenes is one of those words that the Critical Text Modern Bible Movement has changed beyond how that Greek word is normally used historically. I think it was in the 1940s that this word was first changed to fit the Modern Bible Movement way of thinking. There are other examples, as well.
Note
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lrs68 · Monday at 7:25 PM

I've been watching this thread and decided to toss out some real truth.

The Greek Language is fascinating because there's literally 2 to 4 possible meanings to every word and it's designed where all of the possible meanings can be used without distorting the general viewpoint.

In other words, if the KJV uses this specific definition and the other translations uses the other possibilities it really doesn't change the intent and all versions are actually correct.

Outside of the word ALL, the rest of the Greek words can mean multiple things and still be within the framework of the intention to the meaning of any word, sentence, or thought.

But carry on because ignorance is truly entertaining 😉

HealthAndHappiness · Monday at 7:30 PM

NightTwister said:

My God is able to suspend the laws of decomposition as He did with the shoes upon the feet of His people when they were wandering around for 40 years in the wilderness.

My God was able to inspire once again His written Word the king cut up with a pen knife and tossed into the fire.
He preserved it in His own way .any different times by many different methods.

The Dark Ages Bibles were hand copied and cherished by believers while the unbelievers of Roman Catholicism gathered what they could find and cast them into the fires. Methods of torture, like burning believers for teaching their own children God's Holy Word, were common. William Tyndale, one of greatest linguists and translators, was strangled for the Bible and burned at the stake. His last prayer was answered and his English translation was published and much used for translating my Bible that I read today.

I have no problem believing it's God's Word as I walk by faith and not by sight. I have a number of reasons for choosing my King James Bible over the newer ones. If you wish to deny the varsity of the One that I chose, sobeit. I'm not here to debate.

One infinitely important matter is that my God IS able not only to preserve His Word in truth, but able to save you from being cast into the lake of fire.
Whether or not someone committed idolatry, murder or not, everyone has lied...

8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21

23For the wages of sin is death;
Romans 6.

Where do we deserve to go?

Is it God's will that you suffer the same fate that enemies of His kind message gave; casting them into the fire along with His Word?

John146 · Monday at 7:33 PM

HealthAndHappiness said:

He not only inspired a copy of the original, but added to it.

keepingthingsreal · Monday at 7:36 PM

Bible_Highlighter said:

I would not necessarily call this particular example "heretical," but it has caused millions of people throughout the years, including our very own day and age, to believe in something that is totally untrue, and that is never going to happen.

Jhn 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

"Mansions" is a terrible translation. The Greek word simply means "room," "dwelling," or "abode," and this is how most other Bible versions properly translate it. In fact, this Greek word only appears twice in the underlying text of the New Testament, and the other time is in this same chapter of John where it is properly translated as "abode" in the KJV.

Jhn 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that Jesus is building "mansions" for believers in heaven, which is what people have ridiculously turned "my Father's house" into due to this terrible translation. Everywhere in scripture, including in this same gospel of John, the "Father's house" is a temple in Jerusalem.

Jhn 2:13
And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Jhn 2:14
And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Jhn 2:15
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Jhn 2:16
And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Jhn 2:17
And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

In John chapter 14, Jesus told the tiny and specific group of disciples who he was actually talking to that when he returns there will be rooms for them in his Father's house or in the temple in Jerusalem in which he will be reigning at that time. Now, due to a terrible translation, people are believing in something totally different which is never going to occur. Not only this, but they are singing about it in many churches while reciting the partly fictitious words of "Victory in Jesus." Do you believe that God inspired this nonsense? I do not because God is neither a liar nor the author of confusion.

Bible_Highlighter said:

You are erroneous in this belief because my own in-depth research covered about 20 years of my life.

Bible_Highlighter said:

Why would I be bent on wanting to see errors in the KJV when I have been reading it for more than 30 years? In reality, it is KJV Onlyists who have repeatedly shown a stubborn unwillingness to admit that the KJV is translated very poorly in certain instances.

My KJV Debate with Jeffrey Dollar

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