You can't see the difference between "depends on human will" and "contingent on both [man's free choices, AND the Word of God]" ?
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in actual Christianity, the surety of the prophetic Word of God is independent of the will of man.
Isaiah 14:26-27
This is the purpose that is purposed against the whole earth, and this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations. For the LORD of Hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?
in actual Christianity God does not change, and His will is not subject to men. Numbers 23:19-20
God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Behold, I have received a command to bless; He has blessed, and I cannot reverse it.
This is what I found on my first google:
1. Open theism is a theological view that God loves humans and is omniscient, but doesn't know what people will do in the future. It's also called openness or the open view. [I believe God knows what future people will do if it is knowable without being absurd or making the plan of salvation a farce.]
2. God is open to what people do. God gives people free will and doesn't micromanage what happens.
God is flexible in how they work toward their goals. [I believe God gives every morally accountable soul
sufficient MFW for seeking His salvation.]
3. The future is open, with multiple possible outcomes. [I believe God guides history toward one future outcome
that has two destinies: heaven and hell.
4. Open theists argue that if God knew what people would choose, then people wouldn't be truly free.
[I agree that determinism explains how God would know what future people would choose more easily
than any other explanation I can think of.]
Thus, I affirm biblical MFW but not Open Theism.
open theism is incompatible with scripture: omniscience and ignorance are opposites.
Psalms 139:15-16
My frame was not hidden from You,
when I was made in secret,
and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Your eyes saw my substance,
being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
the days fashioned for me,
when as yet there were none of them.
In the same way that omnipotence does not mean having power to make a rock too big to move because that is absurd,
or saying that God has the power not to exist or be God, because that is likewise ridiculous,
so also omniscience does not mean knowing something that makes the plan of salvation absurd.
The only comprehensible way that God could know what a future person would do is if He determined behavior,
which would make the Gospel a farce, God hateful and hell unjust--which is unbiblical.
If there is some way beyond our comprehension that God knows such, it must be maintained that
it does not abrogate moral free, because that would make God blameworthy or responsible for sin
rather than worthy of worship, adoration and praise for his love and righteousness (which would be blasphemous).
Yes, that is determinism--so I hope you believe in universal salvation too,
(even though that is also unbiblical :^/
Nope, it's not determinism; it's simply a reflection of reality. We are limited in every way to do what God is capable of. He created every single atom that exists, either out of nothing or out of Himself, depending on your understanding. Not only that, He knows what He created them for, how they will be employed throughout history, and exactly what He created them to do. Because of this, He can't not know where they will be at any point in time and how they will be working. All this, simply by virtue of creation.
I haven't even gotten into the continual work of Christ in creation, upholding all things by the word of His power, or the constraints God places on His creative work. We can explore all 3 avenues if you like.
None of these avenues need remove individual accountability or personal choices from individuals. 2 things can be true at the same time. God can be controlling history and mankind can be fulfilling it through their choices. An excellent example is found in Acts 2:23 wherein God assigns the cause of the crucifixion to both His determined counsel and the actions of wicked men. Easy peasy...at least for God.
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knowing the end from the beginning isn't absolute determinism; that's the same fallacy open theism embraces when it contwnds that foreknowledge is causation. Biblical predestination does not necessarily equal hypercalvanism.
God absolutely knows us. He does not create us ignorantly or haphazardly or abjwctively. and He also creates us with some amount of free agency. but the scripture also says He knows all our days before they ever occur and that He chose us who are His own before He created the world.
our reaction to these facts should not be 'God is unfair' any more than it should be to create some worldly philosophy that calls God ignorant in order to explain away the scripture in such a way as to attempt to preserve the supposed sovereignty of human will. both are equally foolish: what God expects of us is humility before Him.
IMO the western church lost much when it forgot how to wonder and awe, deciding it could explain everything about infinite God with mere human, necessarily flawed reason.
as my pastor says, the ideal response when you hear a preacher say he's going to explain something like the Trinity or the reconciliation of free will and the sovereignty of God, is to throw chairs and run! Someone is an idiot and after your wallet.
knowing the end from the beginning isn't absolute determinism; that's the same fallacy open theism embraces when it contwnds that foreknowledge is causation. Biblical predestination does not necessarily equal hypercalvanism.
God absolutely knows us. He does not create us ignorantly or haphazardly or abjwctively. and He also creates us with some amount of free agency. but the scripture also says He knows all our days before they ever occur and that He chose us who are His own before He created the world.
our reaction to these facts should not be 'God is unfair' any more than it should be to create some worldly philosophy that calls God ignorant in order to explain away the scripture in such a way as to attempt to preserve the supposed sovereignty of human will. both are equally foolish: what God expects of us is humility before Him.
IMO the western church lost much when it forgot how to wonder and awe, deciding it could explain everything about infinite God with mere human, necessarily flawed reason.
as my pastor says, the ideal response when you hear a preacher say he's going to explain something like the Trinity or the reconciliation of free will and the sovereignty of God, is to throw chairs and run! Someone is an idiot and after your wallet.
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is it really such a bad thing if God knew what He was doing when He created you?
- you left something out -- i filled it in for you in green -- the only "humanly" comprehensible way "for you personally" that God could know...
- i reccomend you go re-read Romans 9 about 50 times, without presuppositions or prejudice, and Job too. it says what it says: God is awesome and inscrutable. questioning His sovereignty is madness!
it is clear in Scripture that,
- God knows all things
- God's will cannot be overcome by human will
- He has given man agency and judges us by our use of it
- He chose us, not the other way around
- Everyone has need of Christ for mediation and propitiation
- To all the offer of salvation is freely given
- Only by grace - unmerited mercy - is Salvation granted, and this is God's intention from before the beginning of time
- All abuse their free agency and no man deserves Life
Yes, the reality is that MFW is limited, and I am glad you do not think it is determined by God.
I believe God is literally omnipresent in creation/the universe, which manifests God Himself/GW
in the dimensions of three dimensional space and time as He continually upholds everything.
"God can be controlling history and mankind can be fulfilling it through their choices" is what I visualize as God controlling where a river flows bu allows the fish to swim where they wish--within limits.
I am glad we agree that God's knowledge of "all things" does not mean He has not given man "agency" or volition,
so souls are justly judged by the choice they make regarding satisfying God's requirement for salvation--
which is faith in Him as revealed from first to last (RM 1:17).
Romans 9 is about how God used Israel to serve his purpose of the seed. Define what you ,ean by “sovereignty” since it’s not found in scripture.
Biblically, God is perfect in knowledge. Allow scripture to define what that means and set aside human logic.