Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Okay, folks, let's get this done as I hammer more nails (if not all of them) into Man's super powerful spiritual ability that FWs so boldly claim mankind has.
FWs claim that if man doesn't have the ability to change his own nature (by the incredible power of his own "freewill", of course) and make choices that are contrary to his evil nature, then they reason carnally, of course, that this makes God a moral monster and/or it reduces men to robots. And so...this kind of unsanctified, profane, carnal, satanaic reasoning becomes their authoritative basis for forming their heretical man-centered, humanistic theology, completely abrogating the inspired, infallible, authoritative Word of God. Their objections based on the kind of reasoning stated above becomes their infallible rule. How very Pharisiacal of you FWs!
Last night, I quoted a passage out of Ecclesiastics (5:18-6:2) that teaches that even with temporal, material blessings or gifts that God may bestow upon the sons of men, men cannot appreciate or enjoy those gifts apart from God giving them the ability to do so. So, with that passage as a foundation to this post, let's proceed with other scriptures.
I have often pointed out that the Law of Moses is impossible for anyone to always keep perfectly. Yet, perfect obedience was required at all times in all places (Lev 18:4-5; Deut 27:26, 2Chron 33:8, etc.) Anyone who breaks so much as one law will be found guilty of violating the entire law (Jas 2:10). Anyone who didn't keep all the terms to the Old Covenant were under its curse (Jer 11:3-4). And to further exacerbate this law problem, we are told in Holy Writ that no one can keep God's Law perfectly (Eccl 7:20; 1Ki 8:46)). The biblical maxim is: Man cannot not sin! It just isn't in man's DNA -- or in his "freewill" that is in bondage to sin, the devil and the "flesh" (sin nature)! But in spite of all this, and God fully knowing all this He gave Israel the impossible task of keeping the entire law! Yet...scripture says that "the man who does these things will live by them" (Rom 10:5)!
Then we encounter in the Word a couple of occasions whereby Jesus encountered sinners he had forgiven and flat out told them to "go and sin no more" (Jn 5:14; 8:11). In fact, in the first passage God even warned the man he had healed that something worse could happen to him if he didn't obey! But what was Jesus thinking when he commanded this!? Wasn't he aware of Eccl 7:20; IKi 8:46) or what He would eventually inspire John to write in 1Jn 1:8-10?
Moreover, both the Old and New Covenant people of God are commanded to be as Holy as God is (Lev 11:44; 19:2; 1Pet 1:16). Talk about an utterly impossible task! It's no wonder that Moses also taught that it is God who effectually makes (of if you're a FW "forces" or "coerces") his people holy (Lev 20:7).
Finally, we come to one of the most controversial passages in all scripture. This passage is so prone to being twisted out of shape that even fine Reformed sites like GotQuestions.org can get it wrong! For this reason, I quote this text:
Matt 5:48
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
NIV
A key term in this text is "perfect" which many prefer to not take at face value but much prefer to make the text say, "be complete" or "be whole" as your Father. Yet the word can indeed mean its primary meaning: PERFECT. See Rom 12:2, for example, in which Paul exhorts the believers in Rome to transform themselves by renewing their mind -- and in so doing they would learn what God's good, pleasing and perfect will is! "Complete" or "whole" no more fits the context of Paul's exhortation than it does what Jesus commanded in his Sermon on the Mount! For there is another key term in Mat 5:48 that is critically important to understanding Jesus' meaning: "therefore"! This term tells us immediately that Jesus is making a conclusion to all he has said previously in his sermon. To understand what he means, then, requires that we understand everything he just said prior to stating this conclusion.
Up until this point, Jesus has been correcting several common misunderstandings that the religious elite of his day have been passing on to the rank and file Israelites. I count six times starting with v.21 wherein Jesus starts his teaching on various subjects with the clause or its very close equivalent, "You have heard that it was said..." Well, from whom did the people hear these things if not from the scribes, elders, Pharisees, rabbis, lawyers, etc.? But also, Jesus exerts his own authority each time to correct these errors by stating, "But I tell you..." Every time He sets the Mosaic Law record straight for his listeners.
So...when Jesus said, "Be perfect AS your heavenly Father is", He was also saying don't be like your teachers who perverted the Law and taught you one error after another. Rather, turn to your Father and be like Him -- PERFECT -- and just as his holy Word that he has given to Israel is itself perfect. Jesus was very likely alluding to any number of OT passages that teach God's perfections, eg. Job 37:16 his "perfect knowledge", or Ps 18:30 in which God's way is perfect, as his flawless Word is, or in Ps 19:7 that states that God's law itself is perfect, or in Isa 25:1 wherein the prophet speaks to God's perfect faithfulness, etc. In fact, Jesus by correcting all these errors exalted his Father's perfections and His perfect law! Therefore, the Gr. term "teleios" (Strong's 5046) should be taken at face value because Jesus is commanding his audience to be perfect like the Lawgiver and not like the religious elite, who were the source of all these errors! Below is a link to blb.classic that provides all the various definitions for the above Gr. term:
https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5046&t=KJV
How are we, then, supposed to understand all these impossible-to-keep commands and laws? It seems to me there is only one way! Just as Adam was duty-bound to obey God, so too are all his progeny -- even though Adam had the ability due to him being alive in the Spirit., while we his ancestors do not have that ability since we come into this world spiritually separated from the life of God, which makes us spiritually deader than doornails. Solomon summed up this truth for us in Eccl 12:13 wherein he said basically, "fear God and keep his commandments as this is the whole duty of man". There are two things fallen man is loathe to do: He neiher wants to fear God or love him. It's not in his vile, wicked, depraved, evil, corrupt, self-deceitful heart to do either, rendering him powerless (Rom 5:6)!
FWs claim that if man doesn't have the ability to change his own nature (by the incredible power of his own "freewill", of course) and make choices that are contrary to his evil nature, then they reason carnally, of course, that this makes God a moral monster and/or it reduces men to robots. And so...this kind of unsanctified, profane, carnal, satanaic reasoning becomes their authoritative basis for forming their heretical man-centered, humanistic theology, completely abrogating the inspired, infallible, authoritative Word of God. Their objections based on the kind of reasoning stated above becomes their infallible rule. How very Pharisiacal of you FWs!
Last night, I quoted a passage out of Ecclesiastics (5:18-6:2) that teaches that even with temporal, material blessings or gifts that God may bestow upon the sons of men, men cannot appreciate or enjoy those gifts apart from God giving them the ability to do so. So, with that passage as a foundation to this post, let's proceed with other scriptures.
I have often pointed out that the Law of Moses is impossible for anyone to always keep perfectly. Yet, perfect obedience was required at all times in all places (Lev 18:4-5; Deut 27:26, 2Chron 33:8, etc.) Anyone who breaks so much as one law will be found guilty of violating the entire law (Jas 2:10). Anyone who didn't keep all the terms to the Old Covenant were under its curse (Jer 11:3-4). And to further exacerbate this law problem, we are told in Holy Writ that no one can keep God's Law perfectly (Eccl 7:20; 1Ki 8:46)). The biblical maxim is: Man cannot not sin! It just isn't in man's DNA -- or in his "freewill" that is in bondage to sin, the devil and the "flesh" (sin nature)! But in spite of all this, and God fully knowing all this He gave Israel the impossible task of keeping the entire law! Yet...scripture says that "the man who does these things will live by them" (Rom 10:5)!
Then we encounter in the Word a couple of occasions whereby Jesus encountered sinners he had forgiven and flat out told them to "go and sin no more" (Jn 5:14; 8:11). In fact, in the first passage God even warned the man he had healed that something worse could happen to him if he didn't obey! But what was Jesus thinking when he commanded this!? Wasn't he aware of Eccl 7:20; IKi 8:46) or what He would eventually inspire John to write in 1Jn 1:8-10?
Moreover, both the Old and New Covenant people of God are commanded to be as Holy as God is (Lev 11:44; 19:2; 1Pet 1:16). Talk about an utterly impossible task! It's no wonder that Moses also taught that it is God who effectually makes (of if you're a FW "forces" or "coerces") his people holy (Lev 20:7).
Finally, we come to one of the most controversial passages in all scripture. This passage is so prone to being twisted out of shape that even fine Reformed sites like GotQuestions.org can get it wrong! For this reason, I quote this text:
Matt 5:48
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
NIV
A key term in this text is "perfect" which many prefer to not take at face value but much prefer to make the text say, "be complete" or "be whole" as your Father. Yet the word can indeed mean its primary meaning: PERFECT. See Rom 12:2, for example, in which Paul exhorts the believers in Rome to transform themselves by renewing their mind -- and in so doing they would learn what God's good, pleasing and perfect will is! "Complete" or "whole" no more fits the context of Paul's exhortation than it does what Jesus commanded in his Sermon on the Mount! For there is another key term in Mat 5:48 that is critically important to understanding Jesus' meaning: "therefore"! This term tells us immediately that Jesus is making a conclusion to all he has said previously in his sermon. To understand what he means, then, requires that we understand everything he just said prior to stating this conclusion.
Up until this point, Jesus has been correcting several common misunderstandings that the religious elite of his day have been passing on to the rank and file Israelites. I count six times starting with v.21 wherein Jesus starts his teaching on various subjects with the clause or its very close equivalent, "You have heard that it was said..." Well, from whom did the people hear these things if not from the scribes, elders, Pharisees, rabbis, lawyers, etc.? But also, Jesus exerts his own authority each time to correct these errors by stating, "But I tell you..." Every time He sets the Mosaic Law record straight for his listeners.
So...when Jesus said, "Be perfect AS your heavenly Father is", He was also saying don't be like your teachers who perverted the Law and taught you one error after another. Rather, turn to your Father and be like Him -- PERFECT -- and just as his holy Word that he has given to Israel is itself perfect. Jesus was very likely alluding to any number of OT passages that teach God's perfections, eg. Job 37:16 his "perfect knowledge", or Ps 18:30 in which God's way is perfect, as his flawless Word is, or in Ps 19:7 that states that God's law itself is perfect, or in Isa 25:1 wherein the prophet speaks to God's perfect faithfulness, etc. In fact, Jesus by correcting all these errors exalted his Father's perfections and His perfect law! Therefore, the Gr. term "teleios" (Strong's 5046) should be taken at face value because Jesus is commanding his audience to be perfect like the Lawgiver and not like the religious elite, who were the source of all these errors! Below is a link to blb.classic that provides all the various definitions for the above Gr. term:
https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5046&t=KJV
How are we, then, supposed to understand all these impossible-to-keep commands and laws? It seems to me there is only one way! Just as Adam was duty-bound to obey God, so too are all his progeny -- even though Adam had the ability due to him being alive in the Spirit., while we his ancestors do not have that ability since we come into this world spiritually separated from the life of God, which makes us spiritually deader than doornails. Solomon summed up this truth for us in Eccl 12:13 wherein he said basically, "fear God and keep his commandments as this is the whole duty of man". There are two things fallen man is loathe to do: He neiher wants to fear God or love him. It's not in his vile, wicked, depraved, evil, corrupt, self-deceitful heart to do either, rendering him powerless (Rom 5:6)!
-
1
- Show all
So, your only teacher is the Holy Spirit, too?
Does the Holy Spirit ever show you where you are wrong?
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up "
Ephesians 4:11-12
to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up "
Ephesians 4:11-12
Not regarding the most fundamental tenets and precepts of the gospel, upon which, and from which, everything else has been built and comes forth. No correction to that was ever necessary nor possible once I became born-again. That fundamental is Christ alone. God does not hide the doctrine of Christ from His elect/saved - He makes quite evident to them that Christ alone is Savior and Man is not.
And you?
[Luk 1:77 KJV]
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
And you?
[Luk 1:77 KJV]
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,