Understanding God’s election

[rogerg]

The church is the body of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was predestined, therefore the church was predestined!

The church is His body the actual fullness of Jesus Christ.

"as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all."

What do you think 'the fullness of Him', means?

The church is not predestined. Where do you read that?

 

[Genez]

That's Genez-ese for "I don't have the verses".

Proverbs 12:1

"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates reproof is stupid"


.​

 

[rogerg]

So 'anyone who calls on the Lord is saved' IN HIM.

But just to be a little more specific, I do believe that anyone who calls upon the Lord has been saved, but they are not so
BECAUSE they called upon the name of the Lord. Rather, they were saved because God had elected them to salvation, and
at a time of His choosing, they were saved and made born-again - with their calling upon Him a result of salvation. God's work, not theirs.

 

[rogerg]

Proverbs 12:1

"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates reproof is stupid"


.​

Yes, and you should try harder to remember it. No specific verses re the Church and election?

 

[Genez]

[from headquarters]
Hello, Roger.
Roger, your mission, if you should choose to accept it?
It is to obfuscate and impair any productive dialogue.
Even, if it means acting like you are low IQ to do so.

This tape will self-destruct after listened to.

Missionary Impossible.

 

[Inquisitor]

No. You missed the "shall be saved' - it does not say "is saved" - future tense. It is not speaking of the first resurrection, but the second.


God is partial ... "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated". Everyone not justified and made righteous by Christ, God hates because
they remain in sin and are in rebellion to God.

Jacob stands for Israel and Esau represents Edom.

As I said before, rogerg.

Paul is not talking about individuals but nations and sub-divisions within nations.

Your missing the wider context.

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God does not hate like we hate each other.

God is love and that is the dominating trait that was demonstrated in Christ.

God did not choose Edom but God did choose Israel.

Further on, God chose Judah.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Romans 10:10
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

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[Genez]

They rely on an analysis of the text from the sixteenth century.

What could possibly go wrong?

Those who see through what they do will be called to bear witness that such ones are to be found to be without excuse.

Nothing goes to waste in God's economy.

 

[rogerg]

[from headquarters]
Hello, Roger.
Roger, your mission, if you should choose to accept it?
It is to obfuscate and impair any productive dialogue.
Even, if it means acting like you are low IQ to do so.

This tape will self-destruct after listened to.

Missionary Impossible.

Ahhh, well, okay then, it's simple enough, just produce the verses

 

[Inquisitor]

[from headquarters]
Hello, Roger.
Roger, your mission, if you should choose to accept it?
It is to obfuscate and impair any productive dialogue.
Even, if it means acting like you are low IQ to do so.

This tape will self-destruct after listened to.

Missionary Impossible.

Show how much you know Genez.

"if you should choose to accept it?"

You know nothing about God's sovereign will; there will be no "choosing" going on.

 

[rogerg]

Jacob stands for Israel and Esau represents Edom.

As I said before, rogerg.

Paul is not talking about individuals but nations and sub-divisions within nations.

Your missing the wider context.

And you miss the spiritual context- which is the important context.
It is talking about the elect versus the non-elect in the spiritual, not about the temporal within the earthly.
Jacob is symbolic of the elect who will/must become saved; Esau of the non-elect who can never become saved.

[Rom 9:11, 13, 15-16 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. ...
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

[Rom 9:23 KJV]
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[Genez]

Ahhh, well, okay then, it's simple enough, just produce the verses

First... produce the brain cells you would need to grasp my answer if I should give it.

I know when I could be wasting time.
But, so far, I am a bit amused.

 

[rogerg]

First... produce the brain cells you would need to grasp my answer if I should give it.

Hmmm. Do I need brain cells to grasp your answer? That's okay just forget it - your two must be exhausted by now.

 

[Inquisitor]

Gods election I believe is nothing less than those whose names were written in the lambs book/register of life from/b4 the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

This book of life will be divulged in the day of Judgment Rev 20 :11-15

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 22:19
And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Be careful, brightfame52, God can erase names from the book of life.

 

[Genez]

Show how much you know Genez.

"if you should choose to accept it?"

You know nothing about God's sovereign will; there will be no "choosing" going on.

Before I even knew I had become born again?
Being a Jew at the time.
I had no idea that when I responded positively to a tract, that I had become a new creation in Christ.

Shortly after… God showed me in a dream a place, where ten years later I was to discover, was a Bible college.
When I had that vision/dream? I still considered myself a Jew.

Add to that.
Ten years before finding myself where I was shown?
There was no Bible college.

God sovereignly got me to where He wanted me, having been shown before it existed.

When I had the dream?
I would not choose to attend any Bible college.
At that time, I had a low opinion of the concept of Bible colleges.

God sovereignly made the choice for me.
I then chose to apply myself and to dedicate myself to study and learning.

He chose what I was to choose about.

 

[Genez]

Hmmm. Do I need brain cells to grasp your answer? That's okay just forget it - your two must be exhausted by now.

No problem!

..............Roger and out!

 

[Inquisitor]

And you miss the spiritual context- which is the important context.
It is talking about the elect versus the non-elect in the spiritual, not about the temporal within the earthly.
Jacob is symbolic of the elect who will/must become saved; Esau of the non-elect who can never become saved.

[Rom 9:11, 13, 15-16 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. ...
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

[Rom 9:23 KJV]
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

You cannot be more mistaken.

Paul is simply discussing why Israel failed.

Think Jews and Gentiles when reading Romans and it seems you still do not understand.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth (Israel), nor of him that runneth (Israel), but of God that sheweth mercy.

The mercy was illustrated in Jesus Christ, IN HIM.

Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness
that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law (runneth, willeth) that would lead to righteousness did
not succeed in reaching that law.

Please read Romans in the given context.

You must stopeth cherry picking verses.

 

[Inquisitor]

Before I even knew I had become born again?
Being a Jew at the time.
I had no idea that when I responded positively to a tract, that I had become a new creation in Christ.

Shortly after… God showed me in a dream a place, where ten years later I was to discover, was a Bible college.
When I had that vision/dream? I still considered myself a Jew.

Add to that.
Ten years before finding myself where I was shown?
There was no Bible college.

God sovereignly got me to where He wanted me, having been shown before it existed.

When I had the dream?
I would not choose to attend any Bible college.
At that time, I had a low opinion of the concept of Bible colleges.

God sovereignly made the choice for me.
I then chose to apply myself and to dedicate myself to study and learning.

He chose what I was to choose about.

An amazing testimony.

Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters
shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.

Par for the course.

 

[Inquisitor]

The church is not predestined. Where do you read that?

Just a question on the side.

Do Calvinists deny the spiritual gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit.

I read the following on Wiki.

The Protestant Reformation saw the birth of a doctrine of cessationism, especially within Calvinism, that sought
to deny that the gifts of the Holy Spirit persisted beyond the Apostolic Age. (Cessationism versus continuationism)

 

[rogerg]

You cannot be more mistaken.

Paul is simply discussing why Israel failed.

Think Jews and Gentiles when reading Romans and it seems you still do not understand.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth (Israel), nor of him that runneth (Israel), but of God that sheweth mercy.

The mercy was illustrated in Jesus Christ, IN HIM.

Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness
that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law (runneth, willeth) that would lead to righteousness did
not succeed in reaching that law.

Please read Romans in the given context.

You must stopeth cherry picking verses.

Oh, I understand okay.

You think the "righteousness of faith" is referring to the temporal?

That law is the law of Christ regarding His salvation. Observe in the following verses the phrase
"righteousness which is of faith" - that is Christ's righteousness and faith. It is spoken of in terms of salvation - that Christ's righteousness and faith brought salvation. Israel (the Jews), followed after the law of works, and therefore
did not attain any righteousness. Salvation and the spiritual underlie those verses, not the temporal

[Rom 9:30-33 KJV]
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[rogerg]

Just a question on the side.

Do Calvinists deny the spiritual gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit.

I read the following on Wiki.

The Protestant Reformation saw the birth of a doctrine of cessationism, especially within Calvinism, that sought
to deny that the gifts of the Holy Spirit persisted beyond the Apostolic Age. (Cessationism versus continuationism)

Don't know, I'm not a Calvinist. As far as I can determine though, it seems that I agree with many of their conclusions, but am not knowledgeable about them in detail, nor am I a follower. I follow the Bible alone.