Preparation for the tribulation.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,098
1,285
113
Yes, to keep, to guard. This is what Harpazo means and Isaiah 26 means. Some will be caught up into the heavenly chamber to be kept and guarded.

caught up and guard do not have the same meanings. One is to physically move someone, the other means to protect which in the context of the letter means to protect them while they are here during that hour. It is not talking about a removal. Another of the letters promises tribulation so none of the letters support a pre-trib rapture. The rapture is post-trib according to Jesus and Paul and any other relevant scripture.
 

BOY

Active member
Oct 11, 2024
176
55
28
So one verse says "He'll bring a third through the fire" and you said it was 100%.

The other verse is to a single church, the one that the Lord is vomiting out of His mouth, the one that He has been locked out of. How is that 100%?

I agree that most Christians will not be raptured "before the hour of trial" but how is Revelation 3:18 proof of your doctrine when the Lord told Philadelphia because they had kept the word He would keep them out of the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole earth?

Neither of these verses says 100% and in fact they both say it isn't 100% when you look at the context or at what they say.
You missed the point altogether.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
37,903
6,982
113
You missed the point altogether.
Or you did. I don't dispute that there will be tribulation saints or that at the end of the seven years a third of the Jews will be saved by Jesus.

No, I dispute that there is no "pre-tribulation" rapture. I don't say that every Christian is taken, I don't even say that most Christians are taken at that time, but there are some that are.

You said 100% are taken at the end of the seven years. You have not provided any evidence whatsoever that would support that claim.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
37,903
6,982
113
caught up and guard do not have the same meanings. One is to physically move someone, the other means to protect which in the context of the letter means to protect them while they are here during that hour. It is not talking about a removal. Another of the letters promises tribulation so none of the letters support a pre-trib rapture. The rapture is post-trib according to Jesus and Paul and any other relevant scripture.
Oh, that is comforting. So when Paul said comfort one another with these words that is how you understand it.
 
Nov 1, 2024
1,670
531
113
Oh, that is comforting. So when Paul said comfort one another with these words that is how you understand it.
Where in scripture has God spared anyone from tribulation, ie affliction? Lot was spared from wrath, ie total destruction. So also today God's children will be spared from God's wrath, but not man's persecution.
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
14,045
7,933
113
"My grace is sufficient for thee", indicates His care for us while in this fallen world, what He does for one He will do for another.
Noah and his family were saved.
Now we have a Savior who modeled how we are to live and indwells we who stay in Him as He protects us, the Savior was protected lest He stub His toe.
Blessings
 
Aug 3, 2018
10,933
2,118
113
The 10 virgin parable has nothing to do with a pretribulation rapture. You are twisting it to making the story something it's not .
Hello BOY,

[pre-tribber here :) ] I AGREE with your statement on the TIMING ISSUE of the "10 VirginS" parable (it's NOT talking about "pre-" Tribulation time-slot, RIGHT!)

Where I might disagree with you is, as to its PURPOSE. Jesus is not speaking here about whom He is intending to "MARRY" (10 or even 5 VirginS [PLURAL]! NO!) These are NOT the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" (that's us--we are presently "BETROTHED"--see again 2Cor11:2 "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]")...

...and this Matthew 25:1-13 is not about "our Rapture [in the air]" but about His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age--[concerning] "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (v.10), aka the earthly MK age (or at least its inauguration), and who it is who will ENTER that time-period (the MK age, i.e. "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" [v.1] / i.e. the earthly-located MK age).

It's not speaking of "the MARRIAGE" itself (pertaining to the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" [that's us], to / for / about whom "the MARRIAGE" itself [ALONE] pertains--and of whom this passage, Matt25:1-13, is not mentioning. It is instead speaking of PLURAL "VirginS" [what we today call "BridesmaidS"]).


COMPARE this with what Luke 12:36,37-38,40,42-44 says (v.36) "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom"!)... THEN
"the meal [G347]" (this is His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [Rev19], FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, kicked-off by the MEAL / i.e. "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER [Matt24:10's reference]" and those PLURAL "virginS" in that Matt25:10 passage are not whom He is "MARRYING" [COMPARE with Ps 45:14's phrase "the virginS her companionS [PLURAL]"--that's NOT "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]," see]).




CONSIDER ALSO: Even though today's wedding celebrations are structured a bit differently from what they were back in that day, I would venture to say that, if you have young-ish children, they could likely tell you the difference between the BRIDE and the BRIDESMAIDS. Mine could. = )




Hope that helps. :)
 
Aug 3, 2018
10,933
2,118
113
Noah and his family were saved.
The example that Jesus supplied, of Noah and his family (Matt24 and Luke 17) were not given to explain "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" but of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [and what immediately precedes and leads up TO THAT], FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS," aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" [earthly-located]... upon His "RETURN" there [TO THE EARTH]).

Compare these passages with both Gen9:1 and Dan2:35c ("[actively] FILL / FILLED the [whole] earth"), which is what Noah & fam were "left" on the earth TO DO (in their mortal bodies) after the "flood-judgment" they were carried THROUGH (whereas the unsaved were "taken" away IN JUDGMENT [the flood-judgment]).





By contrast, "ENOCH [ONE MAN]" is a TYPE of "our Rapture" (who was taken out of this world [/translated] PRIOR TO when the "flood-judgment" came upon the whole world).

["...I... will keep thee OUT-OF the HOUR OF..." (i.e. out of the TIME-PERIOD OF...) - Rev3:10]
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
14,045
7,933
113
Maybe you are right, maybe you are not, could have been both.
Elijah was taken up when his work was done.
Still aiming to be found at work for the Kingdom as He requires either way.
blessings
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
37,903
6,982
113
Where in scripture has God spared anyone from tribulation, ie affliction? Lot was spared from wrath, ie total destruction. So also today God's children will be spared from God's wrath, but not man's persecution.
That is a major misconception. Jesus said Philadelphia would be kept from the hour of trial because they kept the word of His patience. They endured tribulation. The idea that the only tribulation is the last seven years of this age is an incredible insult to all those who have been martyred for the testimony of Jesus. In the book of Daniel he is thrown into the lion's den because he stood strong against the decree of the king. It is insulting to say he didn't go through tribulation. It would be asburd to say you have to go through the last seven years in order to be raptured because the Bible clearly says the dead in Christ rise first. If they were dead prior to the seven years they never went through that period.
 
Nov 1, 2024
1,670
531
113
That is a major misconception. Jesus said Philadelphia would be kept from the hour of trial because they kept the word of His patience.
It doesn't say they will be kept from it, but will be guarded in it. In other words the word that they guarded will guard them from error and falling away in the hour of trial
 
Aug 3, 2018
10,933
2,118
113
Hello BOY,

[pre-tribber here :) ] I AGREE with your statement on the TIMING ISSUE of the "10 VirginS" parable (it's NOT talking about "pre-" Tribulation time-slot, RIGHT!)
Where I might disagree with you is, as to its PURPOSE. Jesus is not speaking here about whom He is intending to "MARRY" (10 or even 5 VirginS [PLURAL]! NO!) These are NOT the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" (that's us--we are presently "BETROTHED"--see again 2Cor11:2 "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]")...
...and this Matthew 25:1-13 is not about "our Rapture [in the air]" but about His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age--[concerning] "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (v.10), aka the earthly MK age (or at least its inauguration), and who it is who will ENTER that time-period (the MK age, i.e. "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" [v.1] / i.e. the earthly-located MK age).

It's not speaking of "the MARRIAGE" itself (pertaining to the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" [that's us], to / for / about whom "the MARRIAGE" itself [ALONE] pertains--and of whom this passage, Matt25:1-13, is not mentioning. It is instead speaking of PLURAL "VirginS" [what we today call "BridesmaidS"]).
COMPARE this with what Luke 12:36,37-38,40,42-44 says (v.36) "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom"!)... THEN "the meal [G347]" (this is His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [Rev19], FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, kicked-off by the MEAL / i.e. "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER [Matt24:10's reference]" and those PLURAL "virginS" in that Matt25:10 passage are not whom He is "MARRYING" [COMPARE with Ps 45:14's phrase "the virginS her companionS [PLURAL]"--that's NOT "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]," see]).
CONSIDER ALSO: Even though today's wedding celebrations are structured a bit differently from what they were back in that day, I would venture to say that, if you have young-ish children, they could likely tell you the difference between the BRIDE and the BRIDESMAIDS. Mine could. = )


Hope that helps. :)
My apologies for that "formatting" ^ ...

... I just now noticed all of the "underlining" that I had NOT INTENDED for the entire lower half of my Post #327 (addressed to @BOY )... so I want to apologize for any confusion this may have caused him, or any other of the readers of that post. Sorry about that!
 
Aug 3, 2018
10,933
2,118
113
Maybe you are right, maybe you are not, could have been both.
Elijah was taken up when his work was done.
Yeah, and then what took place after "Elijah" was taken up?




The following passage tells us...


2Ki 2:9
And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

2Ki 2:10
And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.

2Ki 2:11
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

2Ki 2:12
And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.




(Reflective of the future "144,000 [of the tribes of Israel]" perhaps? Rev7:4 [/1:1] "servants of our God" as they are specifically called there. [parallel Matt22:8's wording, following the "70ad events" verse 7 of that Matt22 passage speaks to--the very same SEQUENCE ISSUE His Olivet Discourse discloses, which many folks tend to miss or overlook, btw...].)
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,098
1,285
113
It doesn't say they will be kept from it, but will be guarded in it. In other words the word that they guarded will guard them from error and falling away in the hour of trial
Agreed.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

7 churches are mentioned of the Christians in the first century yet pre-trib takes one line from one letter and uses it as if this one thing somehow proves the entire church will be raptured before the great tribulation. That's horribly bad exegesis.

The problems:

1. Obviously, it's only said about 1/7 of the churches so that isn't a pre-trib rapture of the whole church.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

2, The fact that tribulation is mentioned for one of the other churches further disproves any idea that the church won't face tribulation. ie: this verse cancels out the other verse. The truth is that neither is talking about the rapture or the great tribulation.

So which is it? No tribulation or some? Pre-trib is inconsistent and misleading when they cite Rev 3:10 and not also Rev 2:10.



3. "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is not the same as "rapture you out of the world to avoid the great tribulation". This means to not fall for or accept the temptations offered like how Christ was kept from falling for any of the devil's temptations. Jesus was not raptured out of the world to be kept from those temptations and neither shall the church.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.

One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual escape.
 
Aug 3, 2018
10,933
2,118
113
The problems:

1. Obviously, it's only said about 1/7 of the churches so that isn't a pre-trib rapture of the whole church.
But each of those "7 letters" has this said:


"...let him hear what the Spirit saith UNTO THE CHURCHES" (7x stated... once in each of those 7 letters... meaning, what is said in one letter is intended also for "the churchES [i.e. all 7, not merely "just the one" (or only 1 of 7, that you say)]")--so what you are suggesting is not actually accurate.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...saith+unto+the+churches&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
37,903
6,982
113
But each of those "7 letters" has this said:


"...let him hear what the Spirit saith UNTO THE CHURCHES" (7x stated... once in each of those 7 letters... meaning, what is said in one letter is intended also for "the churchES [i.e. all 7, not merely "just the one" (or only 1 of 7, that you say)]")--so what you are suggesting is not actually accurate.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...saith+unto+the+churches&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
Seriously? You think the whole church of Laodicea gets raptured? How about Thyatira which has Jezebel teachign them to partake of things sacrificed to idols and commit fornication? To Sardis He threatens to blot their name out of the book of life and you think they get raptured?
 
Aug 3, 2018
10,933
2,118
113
Seriously? You think the whole church of Laodicea gets raptured?
No. Not what I said.

Please re-read my Post #316 ( https://christianchat.com/threads/preparation-for-the-tribulation.216913/post-5437524 ), where I talk about how the "LUKEWARM" (Rev3:15-16 and context) are NOT "SAVED" persons (scroll down to see what I put under my Point #2 in that post)[/B]... they will be "spewed out of His mouth" INTO THE TRIB YRS, because they are NOT "saved"... but He counsels them to "buy of Me gold tried in the fire SO THAT..."

How about Thyatira which has Jezebel teachign them to partake of things sacrificed to idols and commit fornication? To Sardis He threatens to blot their name out of the book of life and you think they get raptured?
All I'm saying is that in EACH of the "7 letters" it states, "HE THAT HATH AN EAR, LET HIM HEAR what the Spirit SAITH UNTO the churchES" (more than one "church" location, for EACH of these letters--because it states this SEVEN TIMES).



My other point in that Post #316, is that saying "unto the churchES" is NOT the same thing as saying "unto the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (the former consists of BOTH "believers" AND "those who are NOT connected with Christ [i.e. the unsaved]"; but the latter consists SOLELY OF "believers [ALL those "saved" in "this present age [singular]," per Eph1:20-23 ["WHEN" (as to its existence)] and the wording of John 7:39, etc... [Holy Spirit sealed and permanently-indwelt]).


The ENTIRE "ONE BODY" will be "SNATCHED" in ONE "SNATCH-ACTION" (our Rapture), with NONE left out. Paul even said to the Corinthians (even those in chpt 3 he called "carnal" and "waking as mere-men"), "we shall ALL be changed, in a moment..." (that takes place at the time-slot of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"). The "Partial-Rapture Theory" is based on several mis-applications of various passages of Scripture. So, no, I disagree with that idea. =)
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,098
1,285
113
But each of those "7 letters" has this said:


"...let him hear what the Spirit saith UNTO THE CHURCHES" (7x stated... once in each of those 7 letters... meaning, what is said in one letter is intended also for "the churchES [i.e. all 7, not merely "just the one" (or only 1 of 7, that you say)]")--so what you are suggesting is not actually accurate.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...saith+unto+the+churches&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

Hearing what is said to all the churches does not mean what is said to one church applies to another church. That thinking is clearly errant. It also is a logical error being that one letter says tribulation will happen, and one interpreted that escape will help no tribulation to happen.