Understanding God’s election

[Kroogz]

Why can't you bring yourself to acknowledge the truth that BrightFlame revealed to you: EVERYONE, but Universalists, believes in a limited atonement quantitatively or qualitatively? Most freewillers (save for the Universalists) hold to the latter and, therefore, limit atonement yourselves.

Again. You are stuck in the garden with the serpent. he is still deceiving you. A sin atonement does NOT save. It Allows God to Approach ALL men(sin is paid for) with His offer of JUSTIFICATION. Unbelievers pay for their UNBELIEF......And plead their case with their own GOOD which is EVIL.

• Revelation 20:12: "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds". (NOT SIN>SIN IS PAID FOR.)

Matt7:22
Many will say to Me on that day(Rev 20:12 every knee shall bow...), ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Our problem is the problem of good and evil. Not sin.

 

[Cranberry]

Romans 9:
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.


19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

 

[Kroogz]

Why can't you bring yourself to acknowledge the truth that BrightFlame revealed to you: EVERYONE, but Universalists, believes in a limited atonement quantitatively or qualitatively? Most freewillers (save for the Universalists) hold to the latter and, therefore, limit atonement yourselves.

At the heart of the matter the calvies and universalists are almost identical. They just differ on the numbers.

No matter what man does or thinks or doesn't do or doesn't think.....God elects man to salvation and belief.

Universalists say "the many."

Calvies say "the few."

Every heresy or false doctrine will circle back to each other in one way or another. Mankind and Satan cannot and will not devise a unique divine plan.

 

[Blain]

You cant see it, i cant help u with that

if you can't then just say so but I can see this is not going to go anywhere so I will just agree to disagree

 

[Rufus]

yes please do because as far as I can tell we are getting nowhere

Okay...let's do this in baby steps to see where we become uncoupled to one another because you might have one idea of what "universal" means and I might have another. So...here we go.

Because I'm a staunch believer in the hermenetical principle of placing myself into the historical/cultural context of the original audience of any and all biblical writers, the only way I could understand a universal sounding phrase to actually being used in a universal sense by a Jewish writer is to understand who the Jews considered to be the "world" or the "whole world". Because so many of us, however, don't adopt this hermeneutical principle for ourselves (at least consistently) then if we understand such phrases, apart from how an ancient Jew would have, then we'd have to believe that the "whole world" consisted of both groups of people who existed in it: Jews and Gentiles, which further means we'd have to understand such phrases as meaning each and every Jew in the world AND each and every Gentile in the world.

Therefore, my question to you is this: Is what I just stated and highlighted above what you personally believe? You believe the apostle meant each and every single Jew and Gentile in the world?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I don't read lips. I read Scripture.

Good I'm glad you read Scripture, then I won't have to post where you find these.


But God shows his love for us in that while we were STILL SINNERS , Christ died for us.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Christ Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.” So he told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. ...

"Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts...

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost. (sinners)

And you are in error.

Ok, here are just a handful of verses that disprove that God created a people to be damned. Kindly go verse by verse and show me where I am in error, I await your answer.

 

[Rufus]

At the heart of the matter the calvies and universalists are almost identical. They just differ on the numbers.

No matter what man does or thinks or doesn't do or doesn't think.....God elects man to salvation and belief.

Universalists say "the many."

Calvies say "the few."

Every heresy or false doctrine will circle back to each other in one way or another. Mankind and Satan cannot and will not devise a unique divine plan.

How can a Universalist not say ALL? Or Everyone? Or Each and Every single person in the world? Where do you come up with "many" for all in the distributive sense?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

@Genez



Tulip is the Gospel

Not even close.

 

[Rufus]

Good I'm glad you read Scripture, then I won't have to post where you find these.


But God shows his love for us in that while we were STILL SINNERS , Christ died for us.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Christ Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.” So he told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. ...

"Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts...

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost. (sinners)



Ok, here are just a handful of verses that disprove that God created a people to be damned. Kindly go verse by verse and show me where I am in error, I await your answer.

All chosen at "random" (to borrow many freewillers' favorite straw man term). But even worse, all interpreted out of context.

 

[Rufus]

Not even close.

It's much better than merely "close" BF hit the bullseye dead center.

 

[Kroogz]

How can a Universalist not say ALL? Or Everyone? Or Each and Every single person in the world? Where do you come up with "many" for all in the distributive sense?

What must I do to be saved?

Or did I miss your answer?

 

[Rufus]

Again. You are stuck in the garden with the serpent. he is still deceiving you. A sin atonement does NOT save. It Allows God to Approach ALL men(sin is paid for) with His offer of JUSTIFICATION. Unbelievers pay for their UNBELIEF......And plead their case with their own GOOD which is EVIL.

• Revelation 20:12: "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds". (NOT SIN>SIN IS PAID FOR.)

Matt7:22
Many will say to Me on that day(Rev 20:12 every knee shall bow...), ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Our problem is the problem of good and evil. Not sin.

What does the above have to do with my question?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

It's much better than merely "close" BF hit the bullseye dead center.

TULIP is man made religion. God isn't a Calvinist, and thank Him for that! PTL!

 

[Rufus]

What must I do to be saved?

Or did I miss your answer?

Another non sequitur. You have the Art of Deflection down solidly!

 

[Kroogz]

What does the above have to do with my question?

What must I do to be saved?

Or did I miss your answer?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

All chosen at "random" (to borrow many freewillers' favorite straw man term). But even worse, all interpreted out of context.

Very well, I give you the same challenge. It's very easy to reject the verses out of hand. Please go one by one and explain where I am in error. If you cannot, then you're wrong.

 

[Rufus]

TULIP is man made religion. God isn't a Calvinist, and thank Him for that! PTL!

No, FWT is a man-made and MAN-CENTERED, MAN-EXALTING, MAN-GLORIFYING, WORLD-LOVING religion.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

No, FWT is a man-made and MAN-CENTERED, MAN-EXALTING, MAN-GLORIFYING, WORLD-LOVING religion.

The verses I just provided turns your whole comment on it's head. But again, if I am in error, go through the verses and show me where you think there is error.

 

[Blain]

But all men are not justified, are they? So who is all men?

all men is the freely given gift of salvation so

Okay...let's do this in baby steps to see where we become uncoupled to one another because you might have one idea of what "universal" means and I might have another. So...here we go.

Because I'm a staunch believer in the hermenetical principle of placing myself into the historical/cultural context of the original audience of any and all biblical writers, the only way I could understand a universal sounding phrase to actually being used in a universal sense by a Jewish writer is to understand who the Jews considered to be the "world" or the "whole world". Because so many of us, however, don't adopt this hermeneutical principle for ourselves (at least consistently) then if we understand such phrases, apart from how an ancient Jew would have, then we'd have to believe that the "whole world" consisted of both groups of people who existed in it: Jews and Gentiles, which further means we'd have to understand such phrases as meaning each and every Jew in the world AND each and every Gentile in the world.

Therefore, my question to you is this: Is what I just stated and highlighted above what you personally believe? You believe the apostle meant each and every single Jew and Gentile in the world?

yes and I also put myself in the historical stance of the audience being spoken to and the topic at hand was written in greek so I research what the phrases and words mean and are in greek the same if I am looking at the hebrew side as well.



But yes everyone is given the opportunity to come to salvation as the scriptures say we can debate over what the words mean but if you don't overcomplicate things the message becomes clear.

You think Jesus's sacrifice wasn't good enough? That salvation is granted only to those who were predestined? I can tell you are very intellectual you would likely swamp me in knowledge and logic but that won't help in this case as we cannot lean on our own understanding we must be guided by the spirit and the spirit alone.

This is why I see differently not because I believe a certain thing but because I am like a child and don't overcomplicate things or try to find meaning where there is not we both think we are lead by the spirit but we oppose each other in our stance and I respect you as one who is clearly intellectual at least you are willing to discuss your point with me.

 

[Rufus]

Very well, I give you the same challenge. It's very easy to reject the verses out of hand. Please go one by one and explain where I am in error. If you cannot, then you're wrong.

You posted several in 6986 for which I don't have time to do all. But...I will answer and exegete any three passages of your choice that you quoted. In other words, take your best three shots.

P.S. You do realize that even if I go through this little exercise, you still won't believe, right?