Applying God's Word to Politics

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S

studier

Well-known member
#541
Apr 18, 2024
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#541
Eli1 said:
Cool, show me what you use for translations of the Bible in different languages. I'm curious. And i'd like to hear it from you because the major is too biased, but very fun, in this conversation. lol
Click to expand...
The screenshot is of my favorite software I've been using for decades. It was and remains for some a favorite of others for its simplicity for doing language analysis. The left screen is all the instances a quick search shows the instance of the Hebrew word. The middle screen is showing the Hebrew, the Greek and some English translations I have selected. The right screen is showing the parsing and lexical definition of the Greek (LXX) word.

I have 2 others I work with to get used to them because this one is no longer supported. Logos | The Most Complete Bible Study Platform and Home - Accordance

1735606408648.png
 
Eli1

Eli1

Well-known member
#542
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#542
studier said:
The screenshot is of my favorite software I've been using for decades. It was and remains for some a favorite of others for its simplicity for doing language analysis. The left screen is all the instances a quick search shows the instance of the Hebrew word. The middle screen is showing the Hebrew, the Greek and some English translations I have selected. The right screen is showing the parsing and lexical definition of the Greek (LXX) word.

I have 2 others I work with to get used to them because this one is no longer supported. Logos | The Most Complete Bible Study Platform and Home - Accordance

View attachment 271616
Click to expand...
Looks like a nice program. Thanks for sharing.
So, question.
Actually before i ask the question i wanted to tell you that i realize that the word in English is "murder".
The follow up question is how do you know that the translation from the Jewish or Greek is the most closely aligned to an English word?
Can you explain that to me? How does the program tell you that?
 
G

GWH

Groovy
#543
Oct 19, 2024
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#543
Eli1 said:
10 commandments.

View attachment 271614
Click to expand...
I guess vrasesh is the same as ( vrasje murder, killing, homicide, kill, sleep, dispatch ) that I found online?

Okay, what is the Albanian for GN 9:6 and EX 21:15?

Actually, it is the fact that killing as right/just punishment is commanded in those passages which determines that the correct understanding of whatever word is used in EX 20:13 must logically be "murder" or unjustified killing.
 
Eli1

Eli1

Well-known member
#544
Apr 5, 2022
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#544
GWH said:
I guess vrasesh is the same as ( vrasje murder, killing, homicide, kill, sleep, dispatch ) that I found online?
Click to expand...
:ROFL: It is NOT the same bro. Hahah. There is no word "murder" in Albanian. It's only "kill".

GWH said:
Okay, what is the Albanian for GN 9:6 and EX 21:15?
Click to expand...
GN 9:6 : Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Albanian version: Cilido që derdh gjakun e një njeriu, gjaku i tij do të derdhet nga një njeri, sepse Perëndia e ka krijuar njeriun simbas shëmbëlltyrës së tij.

This is a 100% correct translation with nothing lost nothing gained. No cultural differences here basically.

EX: 21:15 Anyone who attacks their father or mother is to be put to death .

Albanian version: Kush rreh atin ose nënën e tij do të dënohet me vdekje .

The only difference in this version is that the word "attack" is not "attack" in Albanian but "beating".
This is essentially the same thing so no cultural differences here.

What's your point? That you want to make a distinction between "good" kills and "wrong" kills.
Yeah, enjoy the English language then. For Albanians it's only "kills" in the vocabulary and the moral implication is silent.
Because we know that we killed a person who was going to kill more people. Not murder. Kill!
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#545
Apr 18, 2013
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#545
studier said:
The screenshot is of my favorite software I've been using for decades. It was and remains for some a favorite of others for its simplicity for doing language analysis. The left screen is all the instances a quick search shows the instance of the Hebrew word. The middle screen is showing the Hebrew, the Greek and some English translations I have selected. The right screen is showing the parsing and lexical definition of the Greek (LXX) word.

I have 2 others I work with to get used to them because this one is no longer supported. Logos | The Most Complete Bible Study Platform and Home - Accordance

View attachment 271616
Click to expand...
Your bible is plumb full o' squiggles like it's written by a drunken sailor. You need yourself a good Bible written in American like God intended.

.
 
S

studier

Well-known member
#546
Apr 18, 2024
1,398
293
83
#546
Eli1 said:
Looks like a nice program. Thanks for sharing.
So, question.
Actually before i ask the question i wanted to tell you that i realize that the word in English is "murder".
The follow up question is how do you know that the translation from the Jewish or Greek is the most closely aligned to an English word?
Can you explain that to me? How does the program tell you that?
Click to expand...
The Hebrew and Greek Lexicons do a historical analysis of how the words are used in the Text and in other historical writings. There are several Lexicons for each language. I have many of them in this system. You can see the one on the right screen and at the bottom the heading for another. At times, maybe many times, they get us close, but we can tell a different English synonymous word or phrase may add clarity. As I said, it's not a one for one science as the example you provided is comparable.

The issue I noticed in Seminary and spoke to my language professor about is that these Lexicons at times will take liberties and put theological conclusions in. So, it's back to doing word searches in the Text and trying to determine how God uses the word.

There are also tools like these TLG - Home and Perseus Digital Library

There are also tools like these you may know of: Bible Study Tools I don't use them much unless someone else is referring to them or I might point to something easy to access that may be useful to them.

Sometimes this comes in handy: Etymonline - Online Etymology Dictionary
 
S

studier

Well-known member
#547
Apr 18, 2024
1,398
293
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#547
Eli1 said:
Yeah, enjoy the English language then. For Albanians it's only "kills" in the vocabulary and the moral implication is silent.
Click to expand...
But the moral implication of the hero cop you wrote the example of, even though he killed a potential or actual killer, there is surely a difference, correct?
 
G

GWH

Groovy
#548
Oct 19, 2024
2,114
517
113
#548
Eli1 said:
:ROFL: It is NOT the same bro. Hahah. There is no word "murder" in Albanian. It's only "kill".



GN 9:6 : Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Albanian version: Cilido që derdh gjakun e një njeriu, gjaku i tij do të derdhet nga një njeri, sepse Perëndia e ka krijuar njeriun simbas shëmbëlltyrës së tij.

This is a 100% correct translation with nothing lost nothing gained. No cultural differences here basically.

EX: 21:15 Anyone who attacks their father or mother is to be put to death .

Albanian version: Kush rreh atin ose nënën e tij do të dënohet me vdekje .

The only difference in this version is that the word "attack" is not "attack" in Albanian but "beating".
This is essentially the same thing so no cultural differences here.

What's your point? That you want to make a distinction between "good" kills and "wrong" kills.
Yeah, enjoy the English language then. For Albanians it's only "kills" in the vocabulary and the moral implication is silent.
Because we know that we killed a person who was going to kill more people. Not murder. Kill!
Click to expand...
My point is this: it is the fact that killing as right/just punishment is commanded in those passages but condemned as wrong in EX 20:13 which logically determines that the correct understanding of whatever word is used in EX 20:13 must logically be "murder" or unjustified killing, so there should be no moral equivalence.
 
S

studier

Well-known member
#549
Apr 18, 2024
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#549
maxwel said:
Your bible is plumb full o' squiggles like it's written by a drunken sailor. You need yourself a good Bible written in American like God intended.

.
Click to expand...
Spoken like a true American! And we can ignore where English was first used. It speaks funny anyway. Maybe I should add a bunch of other foreign translations to the center screen and make it even more fun! But it's tough enough dealing with just the 3+ I normally deal with.
 
Eli1

Eli1

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#550
Apr 5, 2022
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#550
studier said:
The Hebrew and Greek Lexicons do a historical analysis of how the words are used in the Text and in other historical writings. There are several Lexicons for each language. I have many of them in this system. You can see the one on the right screen and at the bottom the heading for another. At times, maybe many times, the get us close, but we can tell a different English synonymous word or phrase may add clarity. As I said, it's not a one for one science as the example you provided is comparable.

The issue I noticed in Seminary and spoke to my language professor about is that these Lexicons at times will take liberties and put theological conclusions in. So, it's back to doing word searches in the Text and trying to determine how God uses the word.

There are also tools like these TLG - Home and Perseus Digital Library

There are also tools like these you may know of: Bible Study Tools I don't use them much unless someone else is referring to them or I might point to something easy to access that may be useful to them.

Sometimes this comes in handy: Etymonline - Online Etymology Dictionary
Click to expand...
Thank you for sharing these resources. I have added this post to my favorites so i can check them out a bit later.
I think the whole point of this exercise is to highlight a few key points which i have mentioned before in the forum:

1. If we get picky on translations we will get lost into translations and the languages themselves are not enough to describe God in His entirety which is why i made peace with many mysteries.
2. The translators of every language do an incredible job in translating the Bible because they need to be very fluid in the cultures of both countries they are trying to translate from/to.
3. In almost every language (i can't imagine what the Japanese words would be) the essence of the teachings of the Bible are captured intact which is why we have unity in Christ.
4. And fourth, the most important point. When we have complete understanding of one language and culture, there are several political, cultural and ways of life within that culture.
This means that anyone with a preconceived ideology like the trans who want to justify their lifestyles and our friend here the major who wants to justify his love of guns, are both wrong for pulling verses out of context in relation to the overall message of the Bible.
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#551
Apr 18, 2013
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#551
GWH said:
My point is this: it is the fact that killing as right/just punishment is commanded in those passages but condemned as wrong in EX 20:13 which logically determines that the correct understanding of whatever word is used in EX 20:13 must logically be "murder" or unjustified killing, so there should be no moral equivalence.
Click to expand...
That's my understanding as well.
Whenever God says "Do x" then later says "Don't do x", we know that since God cannot contradict himself, there must be a genuine difference in the semantics of the two statements.

Sorry guys, I haven't been following the whole thread, just noticed the last few posts.
Not really sure what's going on here.

.
 
Eli1

Eli1

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#552
studier said:
But the moral implication of the hero cop you wrote the example of, even though he killed a potential or actual killer, there is surely a difference, correct?
Click to expand...
Of course, but the point is that the cop is a killer nonetheless. A professional killer in fact.
He's tainted because he took another human life but he is who we call to do the killing because we don't want to cross that line.
That is why the word "murder" doesn't exist in the culture.
 
Eli1

Eli1

Well-known member
#553
Apr 5, 2022
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#553
GWH said:
My point is this: it is the fact that killing as right/just punishment is commanded in those passages but condemned as wrong in EX 20:13 which logically determines that the correct understanding of whatever word is used in EX 20:13 must logically be "murder" or unjustified killing, so there should be no moral equivalence.
Click to expand...
And my point is this: you want to justify killing because you love guns. But Jesus also said that those who live by the sword die by the sword.
You are cherry picking the Bible to support your love of guns.
The trans people also cherry pick the Bible to support their love of being trans.
 
Eli1

Eli1

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#554
maxwel said:
Not really sure what's going on here.

.
Click to expand...
Maxwell this is an "old guys" coffee shop that the major and i started.
We all love God and we do a bit of "old guys" humor here and there.
We have coffee, food and beer sometimes. :D
 
S

studier

Well-known member
#556
Apr 18, 2024
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#556
Eli1 said:
Of course, but the point is that the cop is a killer nonetheless. A professional killer in fact.
Click to expand...
Makes sense assuming your different culture. Nevertheless, he is a legitimately sanctioned killer which could have similar meaning to not a murderer.
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#558
Apr 18, 2013
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#558
Eli1 said:
Maxwell this is an "old guys" coffee shop that the major and i started.
We all love God and we do a bit of "old guys" humor here and there.
We have coffee, food and beer sometimes. :D
Click to expand...
As I can neither confirm nor deny being an "old guy"... I may need to find the egress.
: )

.
 
G

GWH

Groovy
#559
Oct 19, 2024
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#559
maxwel said:
That's my understanding as well.
Whenever God says "Do x" then later says "Don't do x", we know that since God cannot contradict himself, there must be a genuine difference in the semantics of the two statements.

Sorry guys, I haven't been following the whole thread, just noticed the last few posts.
Not really sure what's going on here.

.
Click to expand...
Wow! It is refreshing to encounter someone who uses their God-given logical ability on CC.

Do you agree that if God says "Thou shalt not murder" in EX 20:13 and "Thou shalt murder babies" in JSH 6-11 that the former is more in line with the NT portrayal of God as all-loving? There are folks on CC who see no problem with the latter!
 
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