Understanding God’s election

[posthuman]

So? God would have a warlock write Scripture while he was casting a spell? ... @rogerg just said yes to that.

does that apply to John 11:51..?
or more clearly, Numbers 22-24?

 

[Cranberry]

Let's just say that it may be tangential. But nevertheless cuts to the heart of the matter now doesn't it?

As I earlier observed, not at all related to what I posted.

 

[Rufus]

ANSWER IT!

Please.. Refresh everybody's mind since ... at least myself... I can not recall what you assume it is.

Don't run away now. Answer it.

Overcome your depravity and answer it.

Why is unregenerate man having no free will?
What causes it?

.

What part of "bondage" don't you understand? Or the term "slaves", don't you get? Or the term "enslaved"? Or the term "prisoners"? Or the metaphor "dead" that you can't understand? If you don't know by now, after all my posts and Magneata's -- all filled with numerous supporting biblical texts -- why "freewill" is not biblically and logically possible, then you'll never understand. And isn't the "will" a card-carrying faculties member? And aren't all man's faculties corrupt?

And then you shamelessly put your ignorance on display by asking "What causes it"? How 'bout this novel idea: DEATH because when that arrives it renders mankind helplessly crippled so that NONE of the faculties are able to function the way God oginally intended, since none of them are free FROM corruption. In other words, man is TOTALLY UNDONE -- kinda like the prophet exlaimed when he got a brief glimpse of someone so VERY UNLIKE himself!

 

[HeIsHere]

What part of "bondage" don't you understand? Or the term "slaves", don't you get? Or the term "enslaved"? Or the term "prisoners"? Or the metaphor "dead" that you can't understand? If you don't know by now, after all my posts and Magneata's -- all filled with numerous supporting biblical texts -- why "freewill" is not biblically and logically possible, then you'll never understand. And isn't the "will" a card-carrying faculties member? And aren't all man's faculties corrupt?

And then you shamelessly put your ignorance on display by asking "What causes it"? How 'bout this novel idea: DEATH because when that arrives it renders mankind helplessly crippled so that NONE of the faculties are able to function the way God originally intended, since none of them are free FROM corruption. In other words, man is TOTALLY UNDONE -- kinda like the prophet exclaimed when he got a brief glimpse of someone so VERY UNLIKE himself!

sad, sad, sad.

You cannot even see how this view of fallen human nature you keep declaring, devoid of any ability to respond to Truth,

this Augustinian view of man's fallen nature,

makes God responsible for all evil since He is responsible for this fallen nature and all sin past, present and future.

Is He not the designer of how man is in this fallen state according to your interpretation of those out of context verses?

Can you accept that in your view God made man born a slave to sin and therefore bears the responsibility for all of man's actions?

 

[Inquisitor]

Well...I know Pharaoh's heart was hardened; but do you have chapter and verse pertaining to his Hebrew slaves?

I thought everyone is unrighteous, everyone suffers from some degree of hardness.

I don't see Pharoah any differently to how I see everyone else.

Paul was rock hard when it came to the gospel until God stopped him, on the road to
Damascus.

 

[Cranberry]

sad, sad, sad.

You cannot even see how this view of fallen human nature you keep declaring, devoid of any ability to respond to Truth,

this Augustinian view of man's fallen nature,

makes God responsible for all evil since He is responsible for this fallen nature and all sin past, present and future.

Is He not the designer of how man is in this fallen state according to your interpretation of those out of context verses?

Can you accept that in your view God made man born a slave to sin and therefore bears the responsibility for all of man's actions?

Yes. As God tells us if we read His word and put what he tells us into proper context.

God has consigned all to disobedience. And as such we cannot understand the things of God. God has mercy upon whom he chooses as the Creator of all things including those he fitted for destruction. God has made everything for His purpose. Even the wicked for the day of disaster.

No one is Saved by finding Christ unless God leads them to Him. Jesus in his earthly ministry taught in parables so that not everyone would understand and come into repentance.

Sin entered the world by one man. Sin is transgression of God's law. Where there is no law there is no Sin. God's first law occurred in Eden.


God is Sovereign. God created the light and the darkness. He creates well being and causes calamity. We plan our lives. God sets our steps. Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

It is Scripture,the breath,Spirit, of God.

 

[cv5]

constructive criticism of what I wrote.

It should be obvious that I am producing only DESTRUCTIVE criticism.

Yes, this went over your head too.

There are no other options BTW.
I cannot in good conscience "build" upon ANY doctrine that Satan disseminates. You know....that which deceived the Woman? And also the angels that fell by these same pack of lies?

Yes, I know that you do not know what I am talking about. Which validates the very claims that I earlier made to which you responded.

You would think that the Calvinites would get tired of losing, wise up and jump ship. But nope. The Pharisees had the exact same problem.

 

[cv5]

After you're read my 5934, I'm still waiting for an intelligent, coherent reply to the problem that exists between man-centered FWT and Prayer! Perhaps you missed my 5554 I posted three days ago? Why don't you take your best personal shot at that incongruity?

So you want an "intelligent, coherent reply" to your unintelligible incoherent Calvinite doctrine do you?

Well I have a better idea:
Scrap the whole shebang and start over.
Because any doctrine that makes God the creator of sin and evil and originator of sin and evil and blames God for all sin and evil will INEVITABLY sound insane.
And it will sound EXACTLY like Calvinite-ism.

And the preachers of it will sound EXACTLY like the nutters around here muttering their bizarre senseless vacuous vain Calvinite incantations.

 

[Inquisitor]

But FWT does not reflect the gospel of Christ. It is totally man-centered, since God's will is SUBSERVIENT to man's. God is reduced to a hand-wringing, brow-sweating, cosmic crystal ball gazer whose only role in an individual's salvation is to observe and react to man's choices. God isn't running the universe; the inmates in the asylum are!

In fact, in FWT God isn't even truly omniscient since He has to learn through his crystal ball gazing what man is going to do BEFORE he reacts.

The gospel is offered by the grace of God, no favorites.

The gospel is Christ centered not man centered?

The gospel is embedded with the Holy Spirit.

When you believe in Jesus you receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38
Repent, Peter said to them, and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for
the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10: 44 – 48, ESV
While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the
believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of
the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues
and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who
have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in
the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Acts 19:1-7
And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and
came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them,
“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were
you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance,
telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”
On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them,
the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Galatians 3:2
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law,
or by hearing with faith?

Ephesians 1:13-14
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him,
were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession
of it, to the praise of his glory.

You only receive the Holy Spirit after you believe.

Do you have any verses that tell us that someone had the Holy Spirit, when they were born?

 

[Genez]

Not at all related to what I said.

It was revealed in what you said.

 

[Inquisitor]

You don't get it...if they didn't believe it would work, they wouldn't have looked. So they must have believed it would work.

Paul was telling the Jews that it was by faith all through Romans.

The Israelites never really exercised faith they were were driven by works of the law.

Your trying to tell me that the Jews actually had faith?

 

[Genez]

Calvinists?

When the angels were finally told to decide between Lucifer or the Lord?

Did they have free will?

........

 

[Genez]

Paul was telling the Jews that it was by faith all through Romans.

The Israelites never really exercised faith they were were driven by works of the law.

Your trying to tell me that the Jews actually had faith?

Yes, the Jews had faith....

For example.... They believed the creation account in Genesis.

 

[cv5]

Also, while I think of it, all freewillers, I presented another huge problem between the man-centered FTW and unregenerate man's "freewill" choice to save himself.

What is this latest Calvinite raving nuttery?

Now they think that Christians think that they are saving themselves?

Crazy right? Sure is. But that's what an 8 X 8 cell in the Calvinite dungeon will do to you.

 

[cv5]

Calvinists?

When the angels were finally told to decide between Lucifer or the Lord?

Did they have free will?

........

Are they going to be judged? Affirmative.
Consequently there is no doubt whatsoever that they DO have free will.

Pharaoh COULD have repented and saved his nation. He was given more than ample opportunity AND reasons. Judgement type reasons.

But he refused. And it is ALL on the record. And he was judged righteously because of his WILLFUL decisions.

One of Satan's lies is that free will does NOT exist. Therefore Gods judgement is NOT just.....it is insanely cruel and unrighteous.

So who ya gonna believe?
Calvinites or Jesus God?

BTW....thems the choices imposed upon all those during the tribulation that much is clear. Satan will literally be right there alongside the Men of God and people will make a..... drumroll.....CHOICE.
A free will choice as to whom they will serve

Jos 24:15 - And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[Kroogz]

Are they going to be judged? Affirmative.
Consequently there is no doubt whatsoever that they DO have free will.

Pharaoh COULD have repented and saved his nation. He was given more than ample opportunity AND reasons. Judgement type reasons.

But he refused. And it is ALL on the record. And he was judged righteously because of his WILLFUL decisions.

One of Satan's lies is that free will does NOT exist. Therefore Gods judgement is NOT just.....it is insanely cruel and unrighteous.

So who ya gonna believe?
Calvinites or Jesus God?

BTW....thems the choices imposed upon all those during the tribulation that much is clear. Satan will literally be right there alongside the Men of God and people will make a..... drumroll.....CHOICE.
A free will choice as to whom they will serve

Jos 24:15 - And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

“I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. The being described in his 5 points is not the god whom you and I acknowledge and adore, the Creator and benevolent and governor of the world, but a daemon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no god at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin.”

—Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823.

 

[Kroogz]

Calvinists?

When the angels were finally told to decide between Lucifer or the Lord?

Did they have free will?

........

The calvies threw logic out the door. Their own"logic'"shoots them in the foot. They claim man has no libertarian freewill. Here is an example of their "logic." And they are completely blind to this point............

I have a belief system. And I can prove my belief system.

I drive around in my car all day long and stop at every person I see and tell them my belief system...........Cars do not exist.

 

[Kroogz]

I love Universalism with all my heart.

Unfortunately, I must adhere to the revelation and reality of the judgement on those that deny the Christ.

I occupy a difficult place where the tension between God's unconditional love for humanity and His righteous
judgement, is a very real phenomenon.

I boast in Jesus and His crucifixion and that's a simple, bona-fide doctrine.

At the heart of the matter the calvies and universalists are almost identical. They just differ on the numbers.

No matter what man does or thinks or doesn't do or doesn't think.....God elects man to salvation and belief.

Universalists say "the many."

Calvies say "the few."

Every heresy or false doctrine will circle back to each other in one way or another. Mankind and Satan cannot and will not devise a unique divine plan.

 

[brightfame52]

10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.

If that applied to all as you claimed?
Who could have written that passage?

And, it was citing Psalms 14:1-3!

1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. 2 The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

NOTE! It says that they "became" that way! Not that way by default, as you would have us to read it!

3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Why "became" corrupt?

It spoke of a time of great national apostasy in the land and had departed from God's law.

Learn to exegete before you stand up in battel and get shot through with holes in your argument.
Calvinism is not some magic shield. It was an attempt to explain things.

in Christ ..............

It applies to all men by nature whether jew or gentile, whether Old test times or New test times, the indictment for them is outlined in Rom 3:9-19

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;/Spiritually dead in sin !

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

This shows the need for Gods unconditional election of grace !

 

[brightfame52]

@Rufus

Therefore, due to the typological nature of the Numbers account, we can't use this narrative to prove that spiritually dead sinners just naturally have this innate desire for eternal life and want to be saved from their sins, and can save themselves by their own power which freewillers call "freewill" ; for this isn't what is taught in Numbers.

The LIVING who looked to the Serpent obviously had this GOD-GIVEN universal gift called SELF-PRESERVATION within them (which even animals have!), which has nothing to do with eternal life in the spiriutal realm. But what ability or enablement or offer did the DEAD Israelites receive to save themselves!? It's cyrstal clear from the passage that this narrative strongly supports the Reformed view of salvation since only the LIVING can respond to a salvation offer.

Nice post, but if I may I would highlight that this shows that it is the quickened, made alive, or regenerate that looks to the Cross/serpent which pictured Christ having been made a curse for them. If you remember Jesus had just instructed nicodemus of the need to be born again of the Spirit to see the things of God Jn 3:3-8, and that discourse led into this narrative.

The other thing, I see nothing of an offer here of salvation, all ws purposed and given to a certain people. Thanks for the post, very edifying