Understanding God’s election

[Genez]

But he became dumb at birth due to the Fall. Don't you know that all the suffering, misery, pain, tears, sorrow and ultimately death are caused by sin?

By Adam's sin. Not ours.
You were condemned before you ever had your first thought. Why?

Death WAS caused by one sin.
We do not cause death by sinning after we are born.
We are already in the process of dying from the moment of birth.

​

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, ​

and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned (in one point in time)— Romans 5:12​

When Adam sinned...
His transformation into having the fallen nature was then set in stone.
For, through Adam's act of procreation with Eve the DNA that carries the sin nature was passed down to all mankind.

It says it was through Adam specifically.

"through one man sin entered the world."​

For the fallen nature passed down through the male sperm.
The woman's ovum does not carry the sin nature. (Genesis 3:15)

That is why sinless Jesus had no human father!

And, yet?

The ovum of Mary carried with it the promise given to David, that through his seed would come the Messiah.

Mary was from the line of David.


grace and peace .......

 

[Genez]

That question has been answered NUMEROUS times on this thread. But I'll answer in another way: Why were the ancient Israelites in Egypt unable to walk out of Egypt and leave their bondage in their own power?

ANSWER IT!

Please.. Refresh everybody's mind since ... at least myself... I can not recall what you assume it is.

Don't run away now. Answer it.

Overcome your depravity and answer it.

Why is unregenerate man having no free will?
What causes it?

.

 

[HeIsHere]

That question has been answered NUMEROUS times on this thread. But I'll answer in another way: Why were the ancient Israelites in Egypt unable to walk out of Egypt and leave their bondage in their own power?

Seems you cannot or will not differentiate between the end result and the means by which one receives the end result.

It just goes round and round.

 

[cv5]

Following is an edited version of post I wrote some time ago re The Bronze Serpent Typology.

The Serpent was NOT offered to everyone in the camp -- only to the LIVING! Many had died already from their snake bites, so they were given NO chance to "repent", believe and look to the raised serpent to be saved from physical death. The offer for the remainder of the Jews to save themselves from physical death was made only AFTER the other Jews had died; for God "predestined" them to die physically! The physically living, on the other hand, represent God's elect whom he decreed in eternity should live. He did not let them die but actually (NOT potentially) offered them a "salvific" remedy, which they took. And why wouldn't they take it, considering the alternative!? They were well aware that if they didn't they would go the way of their fellow deceased Israelites who had already died from their bites.

Therefore, due to the typological nature of the Numbers account, we can't use this narrative to prove that spiritually dead sinners just naturally have this innate desire for eternal life and want to be saved from their sins, and can save themselves by their own power which freewillers call "freewill" ; for this isn't what is taught in Numbers. The LIVING who looked to the Serpent obviously had this GOD-GIVEN universal gift called SELF-PRESERVATION within them (which even animals have!), which has nothing to do with eternal life in the spiriutal realm. But what ability or enablement or offer did the DEAD Israelites receive to save themselves!? It's cyrstal clear from the passage that this narrative strongly supports the Reformed view of salvation since only the LIVING can respond to a salvation offer.

To take this a step further, the Bronze Serpent narrative is a fantastic illustration of the truth Paul taught in Rom 9:21. The Divine Potter clearly made two lumps of Israelites out of one! The first lump was predestined for ignoble use which is why God punished them with death, giving them no chance to live. The seond lump, while being as guilty as the first, were allowed to live because they were predestined for noble use; therefore, God saved them through his miracle after they were bitten! The fact that both groups (the already dead and the living) were both bitten (punished by God) proves that there wasn't an iota of diffrence between them. Yet, because God MADE the DIFFERENCE between the two groups, the lives of the living were preserved; for God had mercy and compassion on them as HE WILLED.

Did some totally misinformed, ill-advised, overly-optimistic freewiller earlier actually make the bold claim that the Bronze Serpent account is devastating to Calvinism?

And that, dear friends, is Calvinite nuttery on display.
Makes no sense. Isn't supposed to make sense.

But it is in fact a proof:
Proof that the nutter Calvinites don't have the slightest idea of what they're talking about.
It is also notable that they don't have the slightest idea of what we're talking about either.

Admittedly a remarkable feat.....if you can consider total failure to be a feat that is.

 

[cv5]

That question has been answered NUMEROUS times on this thread. But I'll answer in another way: Why were the ancient Israelites in Egypt unable to walk out of Egypt and leave their bondage in their own power?

Because Pharoah was wicked evil man. This as the result of his own free will.
But the Pharoah of Joseph was a very good man. This as a result of HIS own free will.

Dead easy man.

And there you go @Rufus. Free will results in all the right answers. Nice and tidy.

The Calvinites are swirling around in an schizophrenic psychotic tornado of bizarre irrationality. This predicated upon their own carnal desires to maintain their ultimate power as gnostic chosenite Pharisaical gatekeepers.

 

[Genez]

Seems you cannot or will not differentiate between the end result and the means by which one receives the end result.

It just goes round and round.

When you ask them what causes it?
They only give examples of what was caused.

 

[Cranberry]

That question has been answered NUMEROUS times on this thread. But I'll answer in another way: Why were the ancient Israelites in Egypt unable to walk out of Egypt and leave their bondage in their own power?

Hardened hearts. Hardened by God.

 

[cv5]

Hardened hearts. Hardened by God.

Pharoahs sin is God's fault? Illegal. And outrageous.

In fact the Old Testament law is perfectly clear in declaring that each man is responsible for his own sin.

And is likewise perfectly clear in stating that the sins of the sons must never accrue to the guilt of the father......and vice versa.

But then again the Calvinites always and forever make God guilty of the sins of His creation.
This of course is also Satan's playbook.

 

[Cranberry]

Pharoahs sin is God's fault? Illegal. And outrageous.

In fact the Old Testament law is perfectly clear in declaring that each man is responsible for his own sin.

And is likewise perfectly clear in stating that the sins of the sons must never accrue to the guilt of the father......and vice versa.

But then again the Calvinites always and forever make God guilty of the sins of His creation.
This of course is also Satan's playbook.

Not at all related to what I said.


Unfortunately you don't understand. Which is why you lash out at those who do.

You and your living that way have my deepest sympathy.

 

[Rufus]

By Adam's sin. Not ours.
You were condemned before you ever had your first thought. Why?

Death WAS caused by one sin.
We do not cause death by sinning after we are born.
We are already in the process of dying from the moment of birth.

​

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, ​

and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned (in one point in time)— Romans 5:12​

When Adam sinned...
His transformation into having the fallen nature was then set in stone.
For, through Adam's act of procreation with Eve the DNA that carries the sin nature was passed down to all mankind.

It says it was through Adam specifically.

"through one man sin entered the world."​

For the fallen nature passed down through the male sperm.
The woman's ovum does not carry the sin nature. (Genesis 3:15)

That is why sinless Jesus had no human father!

And, yet?

The ovum of Mary carried with it the promise given to David, that through his seed would come the Messiah.

Mary was from the line of David.


grace and peace .......

"Why", you ask? Didn't you just answer it? You sound as though it was unfair or unjust of God to treat the human race on the basis of mankind's God-appointed representative. Look at the three-fold curse that is upon the earth -- all because of one sin by one man.

And this little discussion reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask a card-carryin', hardcore Dispen such as yourself: In the 1,000 literal years of the earthly millennium kingdom, will Christ be ruling an earth that is still cursed or will it be curse-free? Will people and animals still die in that kingdom?

P.S. Did you ever read Rev 21 & 22 as I suggested recently? If so, did you come to a conclusion about whether or not Israel will be the only nation occupying the restored earth?

 

[Rufus]

Hardened hearts. Hardened by God.

Well...I know Pharaoh's heart was hardened; but do you have chapter and verse pertaining to his Hebrew slaves?

 

[John146]

Hardened hearts. Hardened by God.

Pharaoh rejected God’s word, therefore, God hardened his heart. Don’t put the cart before the horse.

 

[Rufus]

Because Pharoah was wicked evil man. This as the result of his own free will.
But the Pharoah of Joseph was a very good man. This as a result of HIS own free will.

Dead easy man.

And there you go @Rufus. Free will results in all the right answers. Nice and tidy.

The Calvinites are swirling around in an schizophrenic psychotic tornado of bizarre irrationality. This predicated upon their own carnal desires to maintain their ultimate power as gnostic chosenite Pharisaical gatekeepers.

Says the smartest man in the room. But folks, isn't everyone else on the planet evil!? Therefore, just as God had to literally rescue his helpless chosen ones from this evil king, likewise God must rescue his equally as helpless elect from the evil one and the bondage to their own evil nature. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the entire world is under the control of Satan. What pity that the worldly wise cannot see the parallels between types and antitypes.

 

[Rufus]

Pharaoh rejected God’s word, therefore, God hardened his heart. Don’t put the cart before the horse.

Explain please why God would need to harden a heart that was already hard enough to reject God's demands?

 

[Cranberry]

Well...I know Pharaoh's heart was hardened; but do you have chapter and verse pertaining to his Hebrew slaves?

Why were they allowed by God to be enslaved for generations?


The Talmud says about 80 percent of the Hebrews did not join the Exodus out of Egypt.

Their hearts were set in subjugation to what they knew and they did not want to face the unknown.

 

[Rufus]

And that, dear friends, is Calvinite nuttery on display.
Makes no sense. Isn't supposed to make sense.

But it is in fact a proof:
Proof that the nutter Calvinites don't have the slightest idea of what they're talking about.
It is also notable that they don't have the slightest idea of what we're talking about either.

Admittedly a remarkable feat.....if you can consider total failure to be a feat that is.

And this drivel, folks, coming from a self-professed learned, well-read, well studied man who nonetheless could not offer any objective, constructive criticism of what I wrote. If he lived in the first century in Israel, he'd be one self-aggrandizing, self-backslapping religious elitist.

 

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="Cranberry, post: 5429147, member: 336379"]Why were they allowed by God to be enslaved for generations?


The Talmud says about 80 percent of the Hebrews did not join the Exodus out of Egypt.

Their hearts were set in subjugation to what they knew and they did not want to face the unknown. [/QUOTE]

They were "allowed by God" (actually He explicitly decreed their enslavement) to serve his redemptive purposes. How else could the historical Exodus have become typological in nature so that it would be exceedingly rich in spiritual learning material for all of God's chosen one to learn, meditate and grow upon? Plus God would not allow the Jews to occupy the land earlier because He still had to deal with the Amorites -- their wickedness had not yet reached the pinnacle.

And you take what the Talmud claims as gospel truth?

But the bottom line here is that you seem to be inferring from scripture that God directly hardened his people's hearts? You haven't provided any biblical proof. Having said that, I will concede that the ancient Hebrews were hardened by all the years they suffered under tyrannical kings. And their hearts were hardened by being exposed to all the pagan gods of Egypt. Joshua in Jos 24 had no flattering remarks for his ancient ancestors in Egypt. They, evidently, over the centuries became full tilt pagan gods worshipers for the most part. But I see these things as more indirect influences through God's providence. IOW, the ancient Hebrews were essentially hardened by their hostile environment.

 

[cv5]

Not at all related to what I said.


Unfortunately you don't understand. Which is why you lash out at those who do.

You and your living that way have my deepest sympathy.

Let's just say that it may be tangential. But nevertheless cuts to the heart of the matter now doesn't it?

 

[Rufus]

Seems you cannot or will not differentiate between the end result and the means by which one receives the end result.

It just goes round and round.

Well...whatever spiritual "means" you may in in mind, they certainly are not effectual for God's people. Which is rather odd, since God's redemption of his ancient Israelites from their bondage was quite effective. They could not have been redeemed APART from his power. But this isn't the case with FWT for God's people today. Whether a person wants to be redeemed or not is entirely up to him/her. He's the proactive one, God is passively crystal ball-gazing and reacting accordingly. He always acts AFTER-the-FACT. (Good thing he didn't do that with the ancient Hebrews when He redeemed them.)

 

[Cranberry]

[QUOTE="Cranberry, post: 5429147, member: 336379"]Why were they allowed by God to be enslaved for generations?


The Talmud says about 80 percent of the Hebrews did not join the Exodus out of Egypt.

Their hearts were set in subjugation to what they knew and they did not want to face the unknown.

They were "allowed by God" (actually He explicitly decreed their enslavement) to serve his redemptive purposes. How else could the historical Exodus have become typological in nature so that it would be exceedingly rich in spiritual learning material for all of God's chosen one to learn, meditate and grow upon? Plus God would not allow the Jews to occupy the land earlier because He still had to deal with the Amorites -- their wickedness had not yet reached the pinnacle.

And you take what the Talmud claims as gospel truth?

But the bottom line here is that you seem to be inferring from scripture that God directly hardened his people's hearts? You haven't provided any biblical proof. Having said that, I will concede that the ancient Hebrews were hardened by all the years they suffered under tyrannical kings. And their hearts were hardened by being exposed to all the pagan gods of Egypt. Joshua in Jos 24 had no flattering remarks for his ancient ancestors in Egypt. They, evidently, over the centuries became full tilt pagan gods worshipers for the most part. But I see these things as more indirect influences through God's providence. IOW, the ancient Hebrews were essentially hardened by their hostile environment.[/QUOTE]
How did the historic hostile environments come about?

To your question regarding the Talmud, did Jesus take it seriously in Matthew 23?