Understanding God’s election

[Pilgrimshope]

The Bible has much to say of the natural man, so perhaps if you incorporated some of that terminology and those understandings into how you think and what you believe, you would see some difference between the natural man and the one with a circumcised heart who has been enabled, as Jesus says man must be... for as Scripture says, it is God Who works in you to will and to do His good pleasure... and He Who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. The lover of darkness does not begin this work...

Jesus’ words in John 6:65 I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them. Plus Colossians 1:21 and 2:13; Ephesians 2:1a and 3b; Philippians 1:6 and 213

Yes sister I’m aware of the scriptures I just think you’re missing my entire position and point . And it doesn’t seem like we’re making progress.

 

[Rufus]

Don't think that I do not notice you putting all of the blame for sin only on the male--you sexist! :^)

Well...Eve wasn't the federal head of the human race...so there's that. Also, Adam was not deceived. He sinned with his eyes wide open.

 

[Magenta]

Yes sister I’m aware of the scriptures I just think you’re missing my entire position and point . And it doesn’t seem like we’re making progress.

Well, that is just sad. But then people jump to all kinds of wrong conclusions when I say man does not have
free will... and there is not much I can do about their choice to do that. So few even make a distinction between
the two things. Still, Scripture is pretty clear about the natural man, and the condition of his heart, and his
attitude toward God, and what is required. We do not seem to agree about those things. Not even Adam
chose correctly and God knew that was going to happen. He was good according to God... until he wasn't.
We are born into that estate, in need of a spiritual rebirth that only God can engender. I do hear you speak of
choosing but I do not hear you saying man's heart must be changed first before the proper choice can be made.

James 1:14-15; 1 John 2:16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .

 

[Blain]

Well, that is just sad. But then people jump to all kinds of wrong conclusions when I say man does not have
free will... and there is not much I can do about their choice to do that. So few even make a distinction between
the two things. Still, Scripture is pretty clear about the natural man, and the condition of his heart, and his
attitude toward God, and what is required. We do not seem to agree about those things. Not even Adam
chose correctly and God knew that was going to happen. He was good according to God until he wasn't.
We are born into that estate, in need of a spiritual rebirth that only God can engender. I do hear you speak of
choosing but I do not hear you saying man's heart must be changed first before the proper choice can be made.

James 1:14-15; 1 John 2:16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .

I think I see what your saying the heart must be humbled before they can come to God and God draws them to that place of being humbled otherwise you would just get a Christian by title only am I near the mark?

 

[Magenta]

I think I see what your saying the heart must be humbled before they can come to God and God draws them to that place of being humbled otherwise you would just get a Christian by title only am I near the mark?

The heart needs to be circumcised, certainly any encounter anyone has with God will humble them...

But encountering God, and coming to believe, are two separate events.

PS just a reminder that my reactions are not working

 

[Pilgrimshope]

(Balance of post cut because it did not answer my questions.) Here are those specific questions again:

The only person who came into this world spiritually alive was Adam, otherwise it would not have been possible for him to spiritually die on the day he sinned. Death logically presupposes antecedent life. If no one is born spiritually dead, why does anyone need to be born again? Why does anyone need to be resurrected (i.e. made alive by God when we WERE once spiritually dead)?

Please make a concerted effort to not get off on tangents.

alright I guess lol seemed pretty basic stuff but I suppose…..that is a good constructive humble way to discuss lol

I’ll just not answer the question in any way then this should end ?

 

[GWH]

Well...Eve wasn't the federal head of the human race...so there's that. Also, Adam was not deceived. He sinned with his eyes wide open.

Well, it seems to me you both are excusing Eve and not giving her enough/equal credit for the first sin.

BTW, did you overlook replying to my post on p.154, #3,069, saying you are on sinking sand by denying God’s universal love?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Well, that is just sad. But then people jump to all kinds of wrong conclusions when I say man does not have
free will... and there is not much I can do about their choice to do that. So few even make a distinction between
the two things. Still, Scripture is pretty clear about the natural man, and the condition of his heart, and his
attitude toward God, and what is required. We do not seem to agree about those things. Not even Adam
chose correctly and God knew that was going to happen. He was good according to God... until he wasn't.
We are born into that estate, in need of a spiritual rebirth that only God can engender. I do hear you speak of
choosing but I do not hear you saying man's heart must be changed first before the proper choice can be made.

James 1:14-15; 1 John 2:16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .

It’s just sad because I don’t feel like we’re making progress sister ? Lol

 

[Magenta]

It’s just sad because I don’t feel like we’re making progress sister ? Lol

And that you just think I'm missing your entire position and point. I do hear you speak of choosing a lot
but I do not hear you saying man's heart must be changed first before the proper choice can be made.

Because the natural man is hostile to God, a lover of darkness, captive to the will of the devil, blinded etc etc (ad nauseum).

 

[Blain]

The heart needs to be circumcised, certainly any encounter anyone has with God will humble them...

But encountering God, and coming to believe, are two separate events.

PS just a reminder that my reactions are not working

yeah that makes sense to me also yeah the reactions are a headache

I encountered God before I was saved but that encounter wasn't enough to bring me to him I had to get to my lowest point where my life and everything I was and owned felt like trash I just felt dead inside

But that is when I got on my knees in tears and literally begged him to come into my heart that was the day or rather night I was saved I woke up the next morning so full of life and fire I jumped out of bed and danced for joy.

 

[Magenta]

yeah that makes sense to me also yeah the reactions are a headache

I encountered God before I was saved but that encounter wasn't enough to bring me to him I had to get
to my lowest point where my life and everything I was and owned felt like trash I just felt dead inside

But that is when I got on my knees in tears and literally begged him to come into my heart that was the day or rather
night I was saved I woke up the next morning so full of life and fire I jumped out of bed and danced for joy.

I encountered God a number of times and attributed much to Him in many ways, for instance delivering me of drug addiction, and alcoholism, when I cried out to Him for help even while not believing in Him, and being directed to where I could get help, etc etc but none of those things caused me to believe in the One True God of the Bible, none of it prevented me from thinking sure there was something and I could call it God but it was not that God, and He was definitely not the one I thought I was looking for... I was hoping there was something else, that was all the natural man in me until my heart was circumcised.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

And that you just think I'm missing your entire position and point. I do hear you speak of choosing a lot
but I do not hear you saying man's heart must be changed first before the proper choice can be made.

Because the natural man is hostile to God, a lover of darkness, captive to the will of the devil, blinded etc etc (ad nauseum).

“but I do not hear you saying man's heart must be changed first before the proper choice can be made. “

Yes sister this is why I went into it wasn’t always like that and it’s a result of what mankind had done and so on I won’t go back into that .

But how did Abraham believe what God told him ? Or how did Noah have faith in God and become hier of the righteousness of faith like we are ? How did all those people it says served and obeyed God and pleases him do that if it wasn’t possible to believe until the gospel came ?

many many ot saints believed before the law came and also afterwards and it never tells us anyone was born again

 

[Blain]

I encountered God a number of times and attributed much to Him in many ways, for instance delivering me of drug addiction, and alcoholism, when I cried out to Him for help even while not believing in Him, and being directed to where I could get help, etc etc but none of those things caused me to believe in the One True God of the Bible, none of it prevented me from thinking sure there was something and I could call it God but it was not that God, and He was definitely not the one I thought I was looking for... I was hoping there was something else, that was all the natural man in me until my heart was circumcised.

Circumcised what does that mean exactly when it comes to the heart?

 

[Magenta]

“but I do not hear you saying man's heart must be changed first before the proper choice can be made. “

Yes sister this is why I went into it wasn’t always like that and it’s a result of what mankind had done and so on I won’t go back into that .

But how did Abraham believe what God told him ? Or how did Noah have faith in God and become hier of the righteousness of faith like we are ? How did all those people it says served and obeyed God and pleases him do that if it wasn’t possible to believe until the gospel came ?

many many ot saints believed before the law came and also afterwards and it never tells us anyone was born again

Is being born again heart circumcision? Or is heart circumcision being born again? I see them as two separate things.

 

[Magenta]

Circumcised what does that mean exactly when it comes to the heart?

It means the sinful nature of the natural man is cut away so that one MAY come to believe and love God.

Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

 

[Blain]

It means the sinful nature of the natural man is cut away so that one MAY come to believe and love God.

Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

how is ones sinful nature cut away until they repent and be saved?

 

[Magenta]

how is ones sinful nature cut away until they repent and be saved?

That seems to be a major crux of these discussions, debates, disagreements... as some believe the heart of
the natural man which is hostile to God and a lover of darkness etc can freely choose to believe while being
captive to the will of the devil and in the flesh within which no good thing exists. Scripture says, For it is with
your heart that you believe and are justified, so how can that stony heart love God until God circumcises it?
Even hearing- some say everyone hears, but the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing, they do not
hear in the way hearing must be taken to mean which would include comprehension. Just as it is by the Holy
Spirit only that one can say, "Jesus is Lord... " but there are those who say they needed no help from God.

 

[Blain]

That seems to be a major crux of these discussions, debates, disagreements... as some believe the heart of
the natural man which is hostile to God and a lover of darkness etc can freely choose to believe while being
captive to the will of the devil and in the flesh within which no good thing exists. Scripture says, For it is with
your heart that you believe and are justified, so how can that stony heart love God until God circumcises it?
Even hearing- some say everyone hears, but the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing, they do not
hear in the way hearing must be taken to mean which would include comprehension. Just as it is by the Holy
Spirit only that one can say, "Jesus is Lord... " but there are those who say they needed no help from God.

is the drawing to him the same as him circumcising our hearts?

 

[Magenta]

is the drawing to him the same as him circumcising our hearts?

God draws us with loving kindness, that has certainly been my experience, but again
the circumcision of the heart is a separate event. I doubt many could say when it
happened for them and I could be wrong to think I know when mine happened.

 

[Blain]

God draws us with loving kindness, that has certainly been my experience, but again
the circumcision of the heart is a separate event. I doubt many could say when it
happened for them and I could be wrong to think I know when mine happened.

I doubt I could either but you know it might make for a good thread