What is the proof Jesus is eternally begotten son?

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posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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doesn't seem to be a universal stance but personally given the history i am very hesitant to argue with the Nicene creed.

i suppose y'all have been able to guess from my conversation, yes the text is weird and messy in some places - bafflegab even, justifiably called @Dino246, ((banapple gas, anyone?)) - but i figure i am better off trying to reconcile what they meant in their context with my language in today's context than to just say they were nuts.

i don't think Athanasius was nuts. i think we just have a bit of a language/culture/context/time barrier here
 

posthuman

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@SonJudgment -no offense here: we are all just talking!

The only "saints" in Scripture are the believers in Christ; there is no such thing as "saints official".
my understanding of what i have read,
is that everyone who believes Jesus is officially a saint. :)
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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doesn't seem to be a universal stance but personally given the history i am very hesitant to argue with the Nicene creed.

i suppose y'all have been able to guess from my conversation, yes the text is weird and messy in some places - bafflegab even, justifiably called @Dino246, ((banapple gas, anyone?)) - but i figure i am better off trying to reconcile what they meant in their context with my language in today's context than to just say they were nuts.

i don't think Athanasius was nuts. i think we just have a bit of a language/culture/context/time barrier here
Agreed. I challenge people to think about what it means so that they wrestle through the awkward wording rather than just embracing what they don't really understand. I suspect the Greek of the creed is much clearer, and that the English is the problem here. :)
 

posthuman

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the idea that Christ was created was unanimously rejected, and a doctrine was set forth in a creed all swore to including the phrase that Christ is the eternally begotten Son of God.
So @PaulThomson and @Dino246, and at @SonJudgment, and @everyone else reading ((but these are my good friends))....

what i think is going on here with this crazy turn of phrase is that Arius was right citing scripture that says Christ is begotten, and probably brought up all these things we've seen in this thread, and more, showing the man Jesus Christ was born an human...

... but then so also Athanasius brought up a pile of scripture showing Jesus is God and that He had never not been God.

so Athanasius concedes the 'begotten' argument and Arius loses dramatically the created being vs Incarnation of the Creator Himself argument, and we ourselves end up with an 1800yr old creed that says "eternally begotten" because OK, i give, begotten, but ya ain't got a leg to stand on against He is eternal.


make sense?
agreed?
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Agreed. I challenge people to think about what it means so that they wrestle through the awkward wording rather than just embracing what they don't really understand. I suspect the Greek of the creed is much clearer, and that the English is the problem here. :)
Gleichfalls :)
 

SonJudgment

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Jun 25, 2024
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You seem to hold the creed in very high regard. That's fine, but when you allow the wording of the creed to supersede Scripture, you're on shaky ground. The only "saints" in Scripture are the believers in Christ; there is no such thing as "saints official".


Exactly how many times do you think Jesus was begotten, if not once?


That is a meaningless statement.


There you go again with the odd phrase. You are advocating the idea that the begetting of Jesus is an eternal action. You might want to think that through carefully.


That's not what Scripture says.

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Nothing there about "eternally begotten Son". There is nothing anywhere else in Scripture about the "eternally begotten Son". So, again, toss your condemnatory railing in the trash where it belongs, stop being a clanging cymbal, and pay more careful attention.

What you have completely failed to see yet is that you're arguing vehemently about two words without examining what they mean when set together. You haven't carefully read what I've written, and instead have made assumptions about me that are not rooted in any sort of truth.

Scripture teaches clearly that Jesus is eternal, that Jesus is the Son of God, and that Jesus is, Himself, God. We don't need to obfuscate the truth by appealing to archaic phrases written by men. Creeds have their place, but when they only serve to bring confusion and disagreement, they should be cast aside in favour of the plain word of God.
That's where you've gone wrong, the Creed does not supersede scripture, the Creed correctly interprets the scripture. .Jesus is eternally begotten there is no limit or number to Jesus being begotten, that's kind of the point of eternal generation.The alternative to eternal generation is most commonly the damnable heresy of Arianism or else the damnable heresy of modalism.
 

SonJudgment

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You haven't cited anything yet that shows what you are claiming the Bible teaches and mandates. A Bible reference is not a citation. You need to cite them, i.e. quote the verses and identify where they can be found in scripture, and then state what you are claiming those cited verses are saying, or vice versa. You are being too sloppy in your argumentation.

"A citation is typically an academic reference used to show your source(s) of information that you used to base a paper or article or argument or whatever on. Even though the information may have been compiled and put into my own words, it's still not my information/research, and the original authors/researchers should be cited. To cite in this context is synonynous with to credit someone / to give someone credit https://www.reddit.com/r/EnglishLearning/comments/yuov8y .
What do you want me to post John 1 again then and textwall post it in full?
Okay

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.

25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.

41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.

44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.

45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.

47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
 

SonJudgment

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Jun 25, 2024
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So @PaulThomson and @Dino246, and at @SonJudgment, and @everyone else reading ((but these are my good friends))....

what i think is going on here with this crazy turn of phrase is that Arius was right citing scripture that says Christ is begotten, and probably brought up all these things we've seen in this thread, and more, showing the man Jesus Christ was born an human...

... but then so also Athanasius brought up a pile of scripture showing Jesus is God and that He had never not been God.

so Athanasius concedes the 'begotten' argument and Arius loses dramatically the created being vs Incarnation of the Creator Himself argument, and we ourselves end up with an 1800yr old creed that says "eternally begotten" because OK, i give, begotten, but ya ain't got a leg to stand on against He is eternal.


make sense?
agreed?
No they did not concede anything to Arius. Arius was just wrong and made his heresy to glorify his ownself and promote his own cult. Athanasius is a saint official whom though all the world hated him God preserved him in the end while Arius only enjoyed his pomp for but a little while and then died a cursed death and burns in Hell as one of the most damned people to ever live.

The wording of begotten is good wording and makes total sense. Begotten means fathered. So as to not confuse the Son with the Father it makes sense. The Father has always loved Jesus and Jesus has always been with the Father. Stating that Jesus is the eternally begotten Son of God is the perfect wording and is why it has stood rather for 1800 years and will stand for all eternity, praise Jesus, the eternally begotten Son of God.
 

SonJudgment

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@SonJudgment -no offense here: we are all just talking!



my understanding of what i have read,
is that everyone who believes Jesus is officially a saint. :)
Yup exactly, all the saints official believe Jesus is the eternally begotten Son of God. That's why denying either the trinity doctrine or denying the apostle's creed, which is basically the summary of the Gospel account of Jesus is the fountanhead of all the damnable heresies, all the damnable heresies attack these two points because these two points are the pillar of Christianity. Without these two points one is not a Christian.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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That's where you've gone wrong, the Creed does not supersede scripture, the Creed correctly interprets the scripture. .Jesus is eternally begotten there is no limit or number to Jesus being begotten, that's kind of the point of eternal generation.The alternative to eternal generation is most commonly the damnable heresy of Arianism or else the damnable heresy of modalism.
Whatever, man. I'll stick with what Scripture actually says... and it doesn't say "eternally begotten" anywhere.
 

SonJudgment

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Whatever, man. I'll stick with what Scripture actually says.
Well then you will abandon the heresies and accept the Creeds pretty easily then since they are what scripture actually says. You will accept that Jesus is the eternally begotten Son of God pretty easily then since that is what the scriptures say.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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What do you want me to post John 1 again then and textwall post it in full?
Okay

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.

25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.

41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.

44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.

45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.

47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
So this is the text you are claiming says that Jesus is eternally begotten. Now highlight where it says anywhere in there that Jesus is eternally begotten.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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So @PaulThomson and @Dino246, and at @SonJudgment, and @everyone else reading ((but these are my good friends))....

what i think is going on here with this crazy turn of phrase is that Arius was right citing scripture that says Christ is begotten, and probably brought up all these things we've seen in this thread, and more, showing the man Jesus Christ was born an human...

... but then so also Athanasius brought up a pile of scripture showing Jesus is God and that He had never not been God.

so Athanasius concedes the 'begotten' argument and Arius loses dramatically the created being vs Incarnation of the Creator Himself argument, and we ourselves end up with an 1800yr old creed that says "eternally begotten" because OK, i give, begotten, but ya ain't got a leg to stand on against He is eternal.


make sense?
agreed?
Yes. The Son is eternal (without beginning or end). And yes, the Son is begotten. And the Son is now called Jesus. But those three facts do not imply that Jesus is eternally begotten.

I am living in the 21st century, and I was begotten. And I was nicknamed Piglet. That does not necessarily mean I was 21st century begotten and was always Piglet.
My greyhound is quick. And my greyhound is trained. My greyhound was renamed Flash. That does not necessarily mean my greyhound was quickly trained and was always Flash.

"Eternally begotten" is not a biblical concept. It is a philosophical construct invented by men. No Christian has to affirm that Jesus is eternally begotten. They can, if the want to. But the Lord does not require it.

There seems to be some philosophical presumption that two of the three Divine Persons must have been generated from an initial one Person. Why not presume that there were always three co-equal Divine Persons and none of them were generated?
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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@PaulThomson

Ran out of time didn't realize i was editing, sorry... partial repost:



Sure, Christ the Son is sent by the godhead -
Genesis 19:24, Exodus 23:20, Matthew 15:24, John 17:18, etc
and the Spirit is sent by the godhead -
Psalm 104:30, John 14:26, 16:7, etc

but where is the Father proceeding from the Son or the Spirit?



so you see Arius's point of view, that the only begotten Son seems subservient to the Father, and having been begotten, is perhaps seemingly not equal. not coeternal. we see in fact exactly the same heresy today in oneness pentecostalism - - apparently forming creeds and condemning heresy does absolutely nothing to get rid of false doctrine, it just makes sure those false teachers are not in your territory anymore, lol.



unfortunately we don't have minutes of the debates that took place at Nicea. we just have letters from Constantine describing what was agreed on, and we have the creed. from these together, and knowing what the controversy was, we piece out what must have been the thrust of the winning, persuasive arguments: the idea that Christ was created was unanimously rejected, and a doctrine was set forth in a creed all swore to including the phrase that Christ is the eternally begotten Son of God.
Sure, Christ the Son is sent by the Godhead down to earth in 1 AD-
Genesis 19:24, Exodus 23:20, Matthew 15:24, John 17:18, etc

and the Holy Spirit is sent by the Godhead down to earth in 30 AD -
Psalm 104:30, John 14:26, 16:7, etc

but the Father is not sent down to earth by the Godhead?

You cannot logically deduce from those facts that the Son and the Holy Spirit must have been generated eternally before 1 AD and 30 AD.

The Jewish Sanhedrin sent some of their own to entrap Jesus before 30 AD, and later the Sanhedrin sent Saul, one of their own, to entrap Jesus followers after 30 AD. We cannot deduce from those facts that the lawyers and Saul must have been eternally begotten by the Sanhedrin.
 

GWH

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What is the proof Jesus is eternally begotten son?
What is the proof that YOU are? You might be AI for all we KNOW.

A wicked generation seeks proof (MT 12:39). Walk by faith (2CR 5:7), my son.

P.S. "The Learner" - I like that; me too!
 

GWH

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SonJudgment

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Jun 25, 2024
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So this is the text you are claiming says that Jesus is eternally begotten. Now highlight where it says anywhere in there that Jesus is eternally begotten.
We already been over this with John 1:1-2 and 14. You can also add verses 3, 4, 15, 18, 30, 34, 49, 51. You can also add all the other chapters and verses that have been quoted or cited by others as well. Jesus Christ, same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Believe that Jesus is the only eternally begotten Son of God to be saved for it is the only way to be saved.
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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What is the proof Jesus is the Christian view that he is eternally begotten son?
Origin
The phrase was likely coined by Saint Athanasius, a secretary to Bishop Alexander of Alexandria, to defend the early Trinitarian theology of the time.
Biblical evidence
The Bible contains passages that support the eternal generation of the Son, including passages that speak of the Father “giving” and the Son “receiving”.
Nicene Creed
The Nicene Creed states, "We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father".
check second Daniel
Good discussion all
I just jumped into this thread because of the OP question. I read it and thought, like many of you, this question does not make any sense. Then I read for 5 pages of debate and discussion and found the original poster had not shown back up, not until the end of the 5th page and this above is his whole contribution to everything you guys have said. To be very honest this seems like the Muslim apologist approach to asking questions. He seems to be zooming into a single phrase that I have not ever heard a Christian use. "Eternally Begotten", what does this even mean? I know that Islam has major problems with Jesus being the "ONLY" begotten Son of God, but Eternally Begotten is not a phrase I've EVER heard a Christian use.

"The Learner", can I ask you what it is that you believe? I'm not trying to "getcha" or be ugly toward you, but if you are in fact wanting to learn in truth, then we have to be honest with each other. I shared my suspicion, and please understand it does not matter at all, I could be WAY off and I am not making "accusations", only sharing the perspective I'm seeing it from. I'm just as open to talking with Muslim's as I am atheist, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, or Satanist. I just read a Islamic apologist style approach in the way you're asking things and phrasing things, but again, I could be wrong, but that's why I feel this could be the case.

Anyway I do see in the Nicaean Creed where is says that, but #1 I don't hold to the Nicaean Creed and it holds no authority over me. #2 I do not like the phrase and personally find it a bit inaccurate to be honest. While Jesus is eternal and has always been, as well is He the begotten Son of God, I do not believe He was "Eternally Begotten", I believe the begotten came with the incarnation of God on earth when He was born. I'm not sure how the men who wrote the Nicaean Creed meant this exactly, but I just see it as an inaccurate phrase for those reasons. How do you see it Learner?
 

homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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What is the proof Jesus is eternally begotten son?
He is risen, never to die ever again, now risen in Spirit and Truth of God Father, for us to be the same
John 4:23-24
The death had to be done first to happen for the fulfillment of Law given the first Chosen first (Matt 5:17). In order to give new life in the risen Christ, as new for us to be new in God's Spirit and Truth
The choice is real and can be chosen by us, in the freedom given us to choose.
The risen life is where the new born again given life is for all to either believe it or not and be new from God to them too, seeing new without working to see it, just see it and are it too.
So simple, it is not.
Man taking thought, and discussing and arguing over it, has made it hard to see, when Jesus as God, has said take on his yoke it is easy, his burden it is light. No one that has the light given them hides it, that person, puts the light on the top of the hill for all to see and be new in truth too.
The proof is he is risen, do you believe, it is not between people and you, it is between God and you personally given you by God for you, Father and Son won for you to be freed too, then one sees things new, unexplainable to the flesh nature that are now clear and one cannot harm others ever again at least this is for me that I see and do not understand, I just trust God all in all, Son did the work for us to be in freed of charges, and one changes from death to life in God Father's Spirit and Truth for them too, thank you
John 4:23-24