Understanding God’s election
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Man's great, awesome, mighty and sovereign "free" will is nowhere to be found in this chapter. 
Ishmael and Esau did not get to choose their spiritual destiny anymore than Issac and Jacob did theirs.
Ishmael and Esau did not get to choose their spiritual destiny anymore than Issac and Jacob did theirs.
And it is obvious that your grasp of the Old Testament is abysmal. Which of course leads to your total inability to comprehend Romans 9.
And even the humblest Bible student can arrive at the conclusion that Jacob did in fact CHOOSE to "hold on" to the covenant given to Abraham, and his inheritance and the responsibilities of priesthood. I mean that is his name for pity sake...."heel-holder" the "holder on-er". Which again is amplified In devastating manner in Gen 32:24-30. Jacob literally would not let go of the covenant promises given by Jesus God. Jacobs entire life was patterned in this manner. Jacob "held on" tenaciously. And every bit of it was an act of his own free will, An act of his own choosing.
Likewise Esau definitely made his own free will decisions to abandon it. He considered it worthless. He walked away from it. He pursued his own will and went his own way.
Your stygian ignorance is woefully embarrassing. Your posts are filled with wrongheaded unbiblical nonsense.
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I'm not hate filled as you suppose. Neither am I ignorant or a troll. I am teasing you a bit because your knickers are in a knot, and because your words ring more true of you than me.
You actually believe you follow laws because you know their outward form, but neglect their understanding.
Perhaps you can share why God created the Sabbath?
You actually believe you follow laws because you know their outward form, but neglect their understanding.
Perhaps you can share why God created the Sabbath?
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John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"
Everyone can usually quote John 3:16 but very rarely continue on with the rest of scripture. It's God a lone who changes the heart of His elect. By Grace we have been saved and not of our works lest anyone boast. When you meditate on that each day His grace becomes greater and greater and greater. We serve an amazing God!!
Everyone can usually quote John 3:16 but very rarely continue on with the rest of scripture. It's God a lone who changes the heart of His elect. By Grace we have been saved and not of our works lest anyone boast. When you meditate on that each day His grace becomes greater and greater and greater. We serve an amazing God!!
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Prayer can be a means for God to reveal to you that you are walking in the Spirit.
For, for the spiritual, God will lead us into our prayers; thought it may seem that we did it on our own.
For when you pray for something righteous and it comes to pass?
That will be God's confirmation that you are walking as He desires.
Your prayer does not make something happen. Your prayer was made by you to reveal what God knows was to happen.
It happened because you grew enough in truth to know how God thinks in a matter.
grace and peace ...................
For, for the spiritual, God will lead us into our prayers; thought it may seem that we did it on our own.
For when you pray for something righteous and it comes to pass?
That will be God's confirmation that you are walking as He desires.
Your prayer does not make something happen. Your prayer was made by you to reveal what God knows was to happen.
It happened because you grew enough in truth to know how God thinks in a matter.
grace and peace ...................
Prayer is our means of communicating with the Lord. He communicates to us through his word. Biblically, the Lord can be touched with our prayers and supplication, and has the authority to answer our prayers, even change his mind on matters (as long as it does not interfere with his plans according to scripture).
So, tell me...Since YOU think it would be unjust of God to sentence such child to hell, then you must think that a just God must save all infants, babies and youngsters who have died without any true knowledge of good and evil? If so...on what basis since the very young cannot exercise faith
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And where in Romans 9 does it say that? You see how you so quickly and willingly you pervert God's word by adding your carnal presuppositions to it? You just read into any given text anything you want just as long as it supports your false gospel. And what part of this passdage, can't you understand:
Rom 9:10-15
10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad — in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls — she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." ?
NIV
In eternity God decreed their eternal destiny. The "sacred, vaunted, sovereign 'free' wills" of the people involved in the two examples of divine election are nowhere found in this passage. Esau was born a rebel and he died a rebel against God because that was his eternal destiny. Likewise, Jacob was also born a sinful rebel, yet because God decreed in eternity to save him then in space and time Jacob eventually trusted in the Lord unto salvation of his soul. Jacob was the recipient of God's Effectual Call (v.12) And that was his divinely appointed destiny.
And this next verse clinches it ever so tightly:
Rom 9:16
16 It does not, THEREFORE, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
NIV
The "therefore" looms quite large in this verse because Paul is drawing the logical conclusion to what he just finished saying in the previous verses. Notice that the verse doesn't say, "It does, therefore, at the end of the day ultimately depend on man's desire and effort to be saved".
And have you never read:
1 Peter 2:8
8 and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."
They stumble because they disobey the message — which is also what they were destined for.?
NIV
And Peter again wrote:
2 Peter 2:3
3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
NIV
These false teachers sound a lot like you and your pastor (a/k/a "good teacher"). You, like they, just make things up when it suits your purpose -- just as you did in your post above. And I would suggest that "their condemnation" has long been hanging over them" for all eternity!
And then we have this passage:
Rom 9:22-24
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath — prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also [effectually ] called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
NIV
And when did God make all this preparation? In eternity -- before any saint or sinner did anything good or bad!
Also, God's foreknowledge is nowhere to be found int his passage. Your absurd view of election has God electing his elect after they first elected God! Moreover, God chose Jacob over Esau BEFORE he "saw" either of them do anything good or bad. God's election is not based on a scintilla of merit found in any sinner simply because there is no good in any sinner! Only God alone is good (Mk 10:18)! (I wonder why Jesus didn't make an exception for "innocent" infants, babies and young children. Maybe you can run that by your "good teacher" and get his take? Maybe innocence isn't good enough to gain eternal life?) I think it's written somewhere that only the righteous or holy will see God. But I will stand to be corrected...
There's an awful lot in Romans 9 that you obviously do not desire to understand. Instead, you're quite content to corrupt and distort the clear teaching of this passage to advance your false version of the gospel. God's decretive will is front and center in this passage, yet you turn around and try to make man's will the centerpiece instead -- all based on your carnal idea of what true justice is.
Rom 9:10-15
10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad — in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls — she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." ?
NIV
In eternity God decreed their eternal destiny. The "sacred, vaunted, sovereign 'free' wills" of the people involved in the two examples of divine election are nowhere found in this passage. Esau was born a rebel and he died a rebel against God because that was his eternal destiny. Likewise, Jacob was also born a sinful rebel, yet because God decreed in eternity to save him then in space and time Jacob eventually trusted in the Lord unto salvation of his soul. Jacob was the recipient of God's Effectual Call (v.12) And that was his divinely appointed destiny.
And this next verse clinches it ever so tightly:
Rom 9:16
16 It does not, THEREFORE, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
NIV
The "therefore" looms quite large in this verse because Paul is drawing the logical conclusion to what he just finished saying in the previous verses. Notice that the verse doesn't say, "It does, therefore, at the end of the day ultimately depend on man's desire and effort to be saved".
And have you never read:
1 Peter 2:8
8 and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."
They stumble because they disobey the message — which is also what they were destined for.?
NIV
And Peter again wrote:
2 Peter 2:3
3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
NIV
These false teachers sound a lot like you and your pastor (a/k/a "good teacher"). You, like they, just make things up when it suits your purpose -- just as you did in your post above. And I would suggest that "their condemnation" has long been hanging over them" for all eternity!
And then we have this passage:
Rom 9:22-24
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath — prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also [effectually ] called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
NIV
And when did God make all this preparation? In eternity -- before any saint or sinner did anything good or bad!
Also, God's foreknowledge is nowhere to be found int his passage. Your absurd view of election has God electing his elect after they first elected God!
Moreover, God chose Jacob over Esau BEFORE he "saw" either of them do anything good or bad. God's election is not based on a scintilla of merit found in any sinner simply because there is no good in any sinner! Only God alone is good (Mk 10:18)! (I wonder why Jesus didn't make an exception for "innocent" infants, babies and young children. Maybe you can run that by your "good teacher" and get his take? Maybe innocence isn't good enough to gain eternal life?) I think it's written somewhere that only the righteous or holy will see God. But I will stand to be corrected...There's an awful lot in Romans 9 that you obviously do not desire to understand. Instead, you're quite content to corrupt and distort the clear teaching of this passage to advance your false version of the gospel. God's decretive will is front and center in this passage, yet you turn around and try to make man's will the centerpiece instead -- all based on your carnal idea of what true justice is.
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