Understanding God’s election

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brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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Its not so much, 'deserve.'
They did nothing wrong other than being born.

Those who deserve punishment must do something consciously wrong as to deserve it.
As a sinner (inheriting Adam's fallen nature)...
Man simply can not stand in God's presence as a sinner.

Its not that they deserve hell.
As a fallen being they do not qualify for eternal life.

The only one who deserved Hell was Lucifer.
After all, the Lake of Fire was created for Satan and his angels (not man). Matthew 25:41

Now? If others want to follow Satan?
Then, they can join him in his destiny.
do you believe sinners deserve hell Yes or no
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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@Kroogz


Yes, sinners deserve hell. And You have The Lord Jesus Christ in such a tiny box you don't realize He paid for the sins of the WHOLE world. Unbelievers are judged for EVIL........Human good works. Deeds. Religion is Satan's ace trump. Even he knows Christ paid for ALL sin.
All sins of the elect were paid for, who are saved. Christ paid only for the sins of the saved elect, the whole world of them !
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Romans 1:18-22, clearly reveals men being drawn by God who freely choose to reject!

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven
against all the godlessness and wickedness of people,
who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since
what may be known about God is plain to them,
because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities
—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly
seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God
nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and
their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to
be wise, they became fools
Incorrect. Of himself, man can choose only to reject Him, as man is spiritually blind. God provides man with intellectual knowledge sufficient for judgment. Yet, to be drawn to God and understand spiritual matters, man must first possess spiritual discernment, which comes only through salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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@rogerg

Yet, to be drawn to God and understand spiritual matters, man must first possess spiritual discernment, which comes only through salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Yes New Birth/Regeneration even. I believe the drawing of Jn 6:44;12:32 is the fruit of regeneration
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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do you believe sinners deserve hell Yes or no
Well we sure know for a fact that YOU do.
A graceless hopeless condemnation for everybody everywhere all the time mindset is quite frankly Satanic.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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Well we sure know for a fact that YOU do.
A graceless hopeless condemnation for everybody everywhere all the time mindset is quite frankly Satanic.
do you believe sinners deserve hell Yes or no
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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do you believe sinners deserve hell Yes or no
Come on...

You be honest.

If a one-year-old is killed in a car accident?
A one-year-old who does not even know what the word 'sin' means?

Does that one-year-old deserve hell????

We need to stop being superficial and dumb.

......
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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do you believe sinners deserve hell Yes or no
Who made me the judge of another mans opportunity for salvation? Absolutely nobody. I am not packing the gear. And neither are you.

[1Co 4:5 KJV]
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

[1Co 5:12 KJV]
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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All sins of the elect were paid for, who are saved. Christ paid only for the sins of the saved elect, the whole world of them !
Where are you getting your non-thinking placards from? Calvinism?

READ!

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 John 2:2​
The whole world is wherever mankind was found on the earth!

Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.
As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.”
They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. Genesis 11:1-3​

THINK with the Word of God!

Not, Theodore Beza, who was only a disciple of John Calvin!
He was the one who came up with TULIP.

You might as well be praying to Mary with your willingness to accept everything you are told in a religious tone.

.......
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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Incorrect. Of himself, man can choose only to reject Him, as man is spiritually blind. God provides man with intellectual knowledge sufficient for judgment. Yet, to be drawn to God and understand spiritual matters, man must first possess spiritual discernment, which comes only through salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
You got your sheep fan club backing you up.
But, not the Word of God.

......
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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You got your sheep fan club backing you up.
But, not the Word of God.

......
No?

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,435
535
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Incorrect. Of himself, man can choose only to reject Him, as man is spiritually blind. God provides man with intellectual knowledge sufficient for judgment. Yet, to be drawn to God and understand spiritual matters, man must first possess spiritual discernment, which comes only through salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

You can only become saved, after you are saved?

NO!

Grace stifles the flesh into silence as a soul is made free to consider the Gospel!

You can know you are a sinner before you are saved! You ever lie? Cheat? Etc?

And, you can also know as an unbeliever that a wonderful, loving man named "Jesus" died on a cross to pay for your sins.

The Gospel is SIMPLE!
Even an unbeliever can grasp it!

Understanding of spiritual truths like the deity of Christ only comes AFTER regeneration!
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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No?

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
That was about unbelievers sitting in church listening to Bible classes, not being able to comprehend how others were enjoying it !
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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You will only be effective with baby Christians .. or those with little Bible understanding caused from neglect.
So, your "good teacher" couldn't find for you one passage that says that sinners are worthy of God's salvation, heh? And I find it extremely revealing that you won't answer my question about what you think about your own salvation. (This tells me that you must think you are worthy of eternal life.) But little do you realize that such a prideful disposition of heart puts you on a very slippery spiritual slope; for God saves only the humble (Ps 18:27; 76:7-9; 138:6) and teaches only them (Ps 25:9).
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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You are doing that very thing by trusting in your personal interpretation of what you choose to believe.

Isaiah 55:8

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.


Proverbs 3:5-7

Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the Lord and depart from evil.
No, I'm not. I'm leaning on the Holy Spirit. Whereas you are leaning upon upon mere finite, fallible mortals. If we take your extreme position to its logical conclusion, it would tell us that we dare not open up our own bibles for personal study, meditation or devotions. Your position on this issue is identical to the Catholic Church's, who insist that Catholics need learned priests to teach them. Or for that matter the cults insist that their members always be guided by their leaders.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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So, your "good teacher" couldn't find for you one passage that says that sinners are worthy of God's salvation, heh? And I find it extremely revealing that you won't answer my question about what you think about your own salvation. (This tells me that you must think you are worthy of eternal life.) But little do you realize that such a prideful disposition of heart puts you on a very slippery spiritual slope; for God saves only the humble (Ps 18:27; 76:7-9; 138:6) and teaches only them (Ps 25:9).

I never said sinners are worthy of salvation.
I did say that only those who reject the drawing of God are worthy of Hell.

God is not going to have a land of the undecided.
He is going to get everyone to make up their mind.
That is why God has the potter's wheel.

I am saying being born with a sin nature (which Adam chose for, not you) is not by default warranting Hell.
It is what a born sinner decides for that determines Hell, or not.

In the meanwhile...
While the one who was born a sinner is being drawn by God?
All his sins were paid for on the Cross!

That is why we are given time to decide for, or against God, while yet being sinners! The CROSS!


He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours,
but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2​


Calvinism, like Catholicism... was having some grave errors.
Yet, they both had big followings.

Each for herd bound souls for what pleased their mental and emotional pattern.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Except for the missing 360 years of Ezekiel 4 course. Which when multiplied by "7 times" (Leviticus 26), you get 2520 years.
Which of course has been fulfilled just recently.

http://watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/HIStoryOurFuture/Ezekiels430Days.html

Oh yes and another thing: Tell us, how long did it take the Jews who returned per Cyrus/Darius to rebuild the Temple?
THREE YEARS. Which of course leaves 1/2 year for the Satan-man to break the covenant, defile the Temple and begin the persecution of Israel.

Oh and another thing: Pray tell us which nations help Israel and provide shelter to them during the Great Tribulation?
Thats right: Ammon, Moab and Edom know nowadays as JORDAN, and what is in JORDAN? PETRA.
And what is the distance between Petra and Jerusalem? Thats right.....1,600 furlongs ***Rev 14***.

[Dan 11:41 KJV]
He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

[Eze 4:4 KJV]
Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: [according] to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.

[Eze 4:5 KJV]
For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

[Eze 4:6 KJV]
And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

==============================================================================
Ezek 4 has nothing to do with Ezek 36. 390 days in chapter 4 has to do with God's command to the prophet and number of years the Israelites had sinned...

And the length of time that it took the Jews to actually complete temple has NOTHING to do with Cyrus' decree! Read Dan 9 very carefully. There's not a thing in that prophecy that has to do with allotted time for rebuilding. You're reading that into the passage.

And here's another little clue for you: the 70 Weeks (Seventy Sevens) of Daniel are not literal years; they are figurative years; just as the 70 years of deportation was for Israel. The Jews were not deported to Babylon all at once. They were deported in stages -- at least 2 or 3 stages. Ditto for the Gentile nations around them whose occupants were also deported to Babylon. Therefore, there is no way for anyone to accurately determine when the 70 years began or ended.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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I never said sinners are worthy of salvation.
I did say that only those who reject the drawing of God are worthy of Hell.

God is not going to have a land of the undecided.
He is going to get everyone to make up their mind.
That is why God has the potter's wheel.

I am saying being born with a sin nature (which Adam chose for, not you) is not by default warranting Hell.
It is what a born sinner decides for that determines Hell, or not.

In the meanwhile...
While the one who was born a sinner is being drawn by God?
All his sins were paid for on the Cross!

That is why we are given time to decide for, or against God, while yet being sinners! The CROSS!


He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours,
but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2​


Calvinism, like Catholicism... was having some grave errors.
Yet, they both had big followings.

Each for herd bound souls for what pleased their mental and emotional pattern.
Neither have you said that you are unworthy either of God's salvation either. It appears you are loathe to admit that. I guess God owes it to you???
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,053
412
83
Well we sure know for a fact that YOU do.
A graceless hopeless condemnation for everybody everywhere all the time mindset is quite frankly Satanic.
Whoever said "everybody"? There is the elect whom God has chosen in eternity -- a number so large that no one can count.

So, do you, too, believe that you are worthy of God's great salvation?