Former pentecostal

[shittim]

if you have the Holy Spirit, you have the gifting Jesus received from John, imparted to the 12, they to the 70, and continuing. Blessings

 

[PaulThomson]

Tongues (languages spoken supernaturally) would have ceased when the Bible was completed, so by the end of the first century. Why would they return when the reason for this gift was in the past? Modern tongues (glossolalia) are not biblical tongues (glossais).

Do you see Jesus face to face, now that you claim that that which is perfect has already come?

 

[PaulThomson]

The thread is like two years old…. Curious, do you have this gift?

What's two years in an endless life?

 

[Mem]

When looking at the Strong's Greek Lexicon provided for 1Cor13:10 to check out the word "perfect," which confirmed what I thought it meant, I backed up a word and look at the Greek for "the"; 3588: The, the definite article. Including the female he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

The Bible isn't a female he, and neither is Jesus, so neither of these can be 'the perfect' which is being referred to.

 

[JaumeJ]

It is called the gift of knowledge in the Word. When any believer is given to speak by the Holy Spirit, it is usually such, unless it is prophecy, which I believe is already covered in the Word.

As for having this, I have been moved by the Spirit several times n my day, but it is not something I turn on and off, the same goes for any gift of the Holy Spirit. God bless you with such.

Oh, I forgot, yes threads get old but they ae never as old as what is written for us to learn, and again, that by the Holy Spirit.

 

[CS1]

IN other words, it ain't Perfect. So how is "that perfect" that eliminates the need for spiritual gifts.

God's word is perfect. The translations of words from Hebrew to Greek and into Latin, as well as German and English, have a systematic range of means. God used imperfect men to bring forth HIS word, and God keeps His word.

 

[GaryA]

So I decided that cessationist are right. The Bible is " that which is perfect" for when gifts will cease. Now we know how to pray and live. I was a pentecostal for most of my life. But I find that if I ask in prayer the one giving tongues is an evil spirit. You've got to be careful. Not every spirit is of God. Try the spirits.

I have not read the whole thread.

I do not believe that the indicated phrase "that which is perfect" is referring to when gifts will cease.

From the past:

From https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...verses-cessationists.53624/page-2#post-848187

These verses have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the completion of the canon of scripture.

(referring to 1 Corinthians 13:8-13)

From https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...verses-cessationists.53624/page-2#post-848660

feedm3 is correct in that the word 'perfect' means "complete, full of age, mature"; however, it is not talking about the canon of scripture. The phrase "that which is perfect" in verse 10 has to be interpreted in view of verses 8-12. It is talking about "mature understanding" - and the point in time when it reaches its "full maturity" - "which just happens to be" at the second coming of Christ. It is not talking about Christ Himself.

Verses 9-12 are an "aside" to verse 8 - and have nothing whatsoever [directly] to do with "spiritual gifts" - and it is [highly] focused on the understanding we have 'now' versus 'then':

The phrase 'we know in part' in verse 9 is referring to what we now know ('understand') by "experience"...

The phrase 'we prophesy in part' in verse 9 is referring to what we now know ('understand') by "faith"...

Verse 10:

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

(At this point you should keep in mind that both 'we know' and 'we prophesy' are "in part"...)

'when that which is perfect is come' => "when we have 'full' and 'complete' understanding"

'that which is in part shall be done away' => "there will be no need of [the other]"

Verse 11 is an illustration about "full [mature] understanding" (and should be fairly self-explanatory).

Verse 12:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

The word 'glass' in this verse is not referring to "window pane glass", but rather, a mirror.

For reference:

For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: ~ James 1:23

The first part of verse 12 is comparing "a dimly seen reflection" (a [not-so-clearly-seen] face in a mirror) to "the real thing" (actual 'face to face' - very clearly seen).

'For now we see through a glass, darkly' => "for now, we can only see a dim reflection"

'but then face to face' => "but then, we will be able to truly understand"

'now I know in part' => "now I have a 'limited' understanding"

'but then shall I know even as also I am known' => "then I will have a 'full', 'complete', and 'clear' understanding"

Now - for a moment - go back to verse 8:

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

'whether there be prophecies, they shall fail'

This is not talking about "prophecy not coming true" - but rather, that [prophecy itself] will "go away" because it will be no longer needed (or meaningful) - then.

'whether there be tongues, they shall cease'

In like fashion - "tongues" will "go away" because it will be no longer needed (or meaningful) - then.

'whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away'

In like fashion - "the present knowledge" will "go away" because it will be no longer needed (or meaningful) - then.

Love (Charity), however, will continue 'forever'...

(while [the current / present] 'prophecies', 'tongues', and 'knowledge' will not)

Now - go to verse 13:

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

The word 'abideth' in this verse means "to remain" or "to endure"...

This verse is saying, in part, that 'faith', 'hope', and 'charity' are the [current / present] things that "remain and endure"- even until then.

This whole passage (chapter 13) is saying - in effect:

"Keep your focus on Love (Charity) - because it is what will endure ([the other stuff] will not) - and without it [the other stuff] is essentially meaningless - and it is the greatest thing (in all of this) that you should strive for, above all else - because it exists / operates / works { and endures } above all else."

From https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...verses-cessationists.53624/page-4#post-850300

By the way... I am essentially a Cessassionist. I believe the [miraculous] spiritual gifts are no longer being "exercised" today. However, I do not believe that it is [directly] because of the completion of the canon of scripture.

It is actually "more like - the other way around"...

God - knowing that the [miraculous] spiritual gifts would fade away - made sure that scripture was written, and the canon compiled...

So - there is a "connection" there - just not quite the way people think of it.

From https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...verses-cessationists.53624/page-4#post-850409

Let me see if I can make this just a bit more clear:

Verse 12 is making an illustration by the comparison of seeing "a dim reflection of a face in a mirror" ("through a glass, darkly") to "a real face" ("face to face") --- and nothing more...

It is NOT talking about anyone actually being "face to face" with anyone - Christ or anyone else...

"a dim reflection of a face" versus "a real face"

"limited understanding" versus "full understanding"

Verse 11 is an "aside" to verse 10.

The word 'For' in verse 12 "refers back" to verse 10.

What "we see" (verse 12) is what changes "when that which is perfect is come" - about which the comparison is being made.


Continued...

 

[GaryA]

Continuation...


From https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...verses-cessationists.53624/page-6#post-851061

It is not talking about knowing yourself...

But, as for the rest - I would tend to agree.

all:

The 'that which is in part' in verse 10 is referring to the two things which are "in part" in verse 9. ("Yes - both of them.")

The idea is that "when that which is perfect is come" - there will no longer be [anything] that is "in part" - all will be "in full" - as in 'complete'.

The word 'perfect' means "mature" or "complete" (and 'that' is a "what" not a "who"). The words 'is come' cause the whole phrase to imply:

"At the time when 'that' reaches maturity."

Essentially, "the maturing of time" or "the end of the age"...

I believe it is referring to that time when:

~ Christ comes back.
~ "the mystery of God should be finished." (Revelation 10:7)
~ we receive our "glorified" body.

('all things' will be "complete", and my understanding will be "full")

"but then shall I know even as also I am known."

No more mystery:

"now we see through a glass, darkly" (chapter 13 verse 12)

Verses 9-12 are talking about 'understanding' - and have nothing whatsoever [directly] to do with "spiritual gifts"...

Verse 11 is an "aside" from verse 10 - for the purpose of illustration - of verse 10.

Verses 9-12 are an "aside" from verse 8 - for the purpose of explanation - of verse 8.

Verse 8 makes a reference to [certain] "spiritual gifts" (in illustration); however, "Charity" is the topic and the focus, not "spiritual gifts" - and, that does not change.

The entire chapter 13 is an explanation of the last half of chapter 12 verse 31:

"and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."

A "departure" from "spiritual gifts" (as both the "main topic" and the focus) is made at chapter 12 verse 31. That "focus" does not return to the "main topic" until chapter 14 verse 1. This is important.

I do not believe 'that which is perfect' (chapter 13 verse 10) is referring to Christ Himself (the person).

I do not even believe it is referring to "the Second Coming of Christ" - in particular.

It is just that "the Second Coming of Christ" is what "brings it about" - brings "the age" to "maturity" or "completeness"...

From https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...verses-cessationists.53624/page-7#post-851070

And - even if it is / was talking about Christ Himself - that would not change the "scope or definition" of anything else...

In any case, I believe it "points to" 'that time' when "all things are full and complete" -- and, in the context of those verses - has nothing [directly] to do with the "spiritual gifts" - because it is "dissociated" from "spiritual gifts" by the context itself.

From https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...verses-cessationists.53624/page-7#post-851122

Just about "everyone I know" believes that God - upon the completion of the canon - caused the [miraculous] "spiritual gifts" to cease - because "the canon is complete and the 'gifts' are no longer needed"...

There is much truth in this statement. However, I do not believe that this description is "the way it happened" - "per se"...

That is what I am saying...

I am saying that I do not believe that scripture supports this idea of "the way it happened"...

I believe that people who say that - and try to tie "spiritual gifts" to 1 Corinthians 13:10 - are just "looking for a leg to stand on" - looking for something in the scriptures that they can point to and say "see there - the gifts ceased when the canon was completed"...

They are not willing to allow scripture itself to "show forth" the truth on the matter...

People tend to do that a lot with scripture. They pick a verse or passage that they think "proves their point" and use it as such. What they are trying to show may very well be true - just not by way of the verse or passage they have chosen - which often has nothing to do with what they have "attached" it to.

It only "pays" to allow scripture to tell us what is says, and what it means. If we "dig up" scripture in order to support an idea that we are trying to prove, we do ourselves a disservice - because "we are doing it backwards" if we go about it that way.

We must always search the scriptures with a "one-way" approach -- from scripture to us - never the other way around.

Scripture must "speak to us" - we should never "speak to it" - in other words:

"Do not put words in the mouth of scripture."

From https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...verses-cessationists.53624/page-9#post-851370

'If any man speak in an unknown tongue' is still what is being talked about in verse 28...

Whether there be an interpreter or not - it is still talking about a man speaking in an unknown tongue.

It is saying, "if you don't have an interpreter, then keep it to yourself [and God]"...

That does not change 'what' it is talking about.

 

[JaumeJ]

Prophesy will cease, when this age has turned into the eternal. Actually, we shall still praise our maker.
Tongues will cease, that is come the Kingdom when our Maker will turn us to one tongue, pure, Zephaniah teaches this.
When s peaking of prophecy, if one is referring to foretelling events, this too will cease come the Day of our Savior.

Until His time, the gifts remain, but not for everyone, for many say, het do not do. Most who truly believe have the greatest gifts of fall, faith, hope and Love.

 

[JTB]

Prophesy will cease, when this age has turned into the eternal. Actually, we shall still praise our maker.
Tongues will cease, that is come the Kingdom when our Maker will turn us to one tongue, pure, Zephaniah teaches this.
When s peaking of prophecy, if one is referring to foretelling events, this too will cease come the Day of our Savior.

Until His time, the gifts remain, but not for everyone, for many say, het do not do. Most who truly believe have the greatest gifts of fall, faith, hope and Love.

Amen

But I would add that for those who say the gifts have ceased,

they have.

But not by God's doing

 

[Aaron56]

It is called the gift of knowledge in the Word. When any believer is given to speak by the Holy Spirit, it is usually such, unless it is prophecy, which I believe is already covered in the Word.

As for having this, I have been moved by the Spirit several times n my day, but it is not something I turn on and off, the same goes for any gift of the Holy Spirit. God bless you with such.

Oh, I forgot, yes threads get old but they ae never as old as what is written for us to learn, and again, that by the Holy Spirit.

In my experience, the gift of knowledge is knowing something about someone you would not otherwise know unless God showed it to you.

This is like when Jesus saw Nathaniel before meeting him physically:

"When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”
“How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.”
Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”

Of course there are many other examples both before and after the crucifixion.

We have to remember: when Paul wrote about "the gift of knowledge" the New Testament did not exist. He was referencing, and teaching about, what was happening in the church between believers.

In my experience, the gift of knowledge primarily serves one purpose: the receiver, the one to whom the knowledge is spoken about, knows that God knows them and sees them. In all my experiences, the people are greatly encouraged by the gift of knowledge.

A certain man was once counseling a woman who had experienced trauma. Her emotions were depressed so she asked for help. As she became encouraged through the discussion the man said to her "You will even find the passion again to play the piano". Her eyes went wide and she asked, "How did you know I used to play the piano?"
"It's what I saw," the man said. As a believer this encouraged her a lot.

 

[CS1]

In my experience, the gift of knowledge is knowing something about someone you would not otherwise know unless God showed it to you.

This is like when Jesus saw Nathaniel before meeting him physically:

"When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”
“How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.”
Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”

Of course there are many other examples both before and after the crucifixion.

We have to remember: when Paul wrote about "the gift of knowledge" the New Testament did not exist. He was referencing, and teaching about, what was happening in the church between believers.

In my experience, the gift of knowledge primarily serves one purpose: the receiver, the one to whom the knowledge is spoken about, knows that God knows them and sees them. In all my experiences, the people are greatly encouraged by the gift of knowledge.

A certain man was once counseling a woman who had experienced trauma. Her emotions were depressed so she asked for help. As she became encouraged through the discussion the man said to her "You will even find the passion again to play the piano". Her eyes went wide and she asked, "How did you know I used to play the piano?"
"It's what I saw," the man said. As a believer this encouraged her a lot.

That is not a gift of knowledge. Is it a word of knowledge. Also, you do not need a person to give you a word of knowledge.

Many non-Pentecostals are used to and don't even know they were.
They go to people each week and say to people, "God put it on my Heart to pray for you and showed me you are going through something." "I believe God is calling me to the ministry."

How did one know there was supposed to be a pastor? How do they know they were called? You had to know this before Seminary or Bible school.

 

[Aaron56]

That is not a gift of knowledge. Is it a word of knowledge. Also, you do not need a person to give you a word of knowledge.

Many non-Pentecostals are used to and don't even know they were.
They go to people each week and say to people, "God put it on my Heart to pray for you and showed me you are going through something." "I believe God is calling me to the ministry."

How did one know there was supposed to be a pastor? How do they know they were called? You had to know this before Seminary or Bible school.

That's not correct. A spiritual gift must have a spiritual component. Otherwise you're just "book-learned".

One who is called should be confirmed by others.

"Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

Only the orphan goes out on his own.

Any way, how did it work in your life?

 

[CS1]

That's not correct. A spiritual gift must have a spiritual component. Otherwise you're just "book-learned".

One who is called should be confirmed by others.

"Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

Only the orphan goes out on his own.

Any way, how did it work in your life?

LOL the spiritual component is one did not know until they have a supernatural understanding or calling that came to them not by the way of man. The confirmation can come by the word of GOD 1. 2. and by those in the Body of Christ 3. by the ability to do the work that you did not have or learn to do.

 

[PaulThomson]

When looking at the Strong's Greek Lexicon provided for 1Cor. 13:10 to check out the word "perfect," which confirmed what I thought it meant, I backed up a word and look at the Greek for "the"; 3588: The, the definite article. Including the female he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

The Bible isn't a female he, and neither is Jesus, so neither of these can be 'the perfect' which is being referred to.

The Greek word for "that which is perfect" is "to teleion". It is a neuter substantive adjective (the perfect) referring to either some neuter gender word gleaned from context, or some phrase or idea implied by the context.

What does the adjective "teleios -on" refer to in 1 Corinthians?

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (toi s teleiois): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men (teleioi).

Another relevant use of teleios in Paul is -

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man (andra teleion), unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Another relevant use of a cognate of teleios, the verb teleO, is -

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It has been finished (tetelestai): and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

So returning to 1 Cor. 13:10. What precedes 1 Cor. 13:10?

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect/complete/finished (to teleion) is come, then that which is in part (to ek merous) shall be done away.

So what could 1 Cor. 13: 10 be saying?

8 Charity never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when the perfect/complete/finished (to teleion) has come, then the partial (to ek merous) shall be done away.

One day, the saints will stop prophesying, because each saint will hear God directly and clearly in their heavenly bodies when they die; and then in their spiritual bodies when they are resurrected.
One day, by-passing the mind, where the Spirit speaks directly through the saint's mouth, in order to eliminate contamination of God's voice through the speaker's mind gate-keeping the uttered words, will cease, because our minds will be fully renewed at death and later in our resurrected forms.
One day, our incorrect knowledge, our many incorrect ideas/beliefs about Jesus and the Godhead and Their will will evaporate as we experience them directly and understand them directly at our death, and later in our glorified raised bodies.

But love will continue to be a feature of our post death and post resurrection experiences.

When perfect hearing and perfect speech and perfect knowledge (i.e. the perfect, to teleion) has come, prophecy, tongues and incorrect ideas/beliefs will be done away.

 

[Aaron56]

LOL the spiritual component is one did not know until they have a supernatural understanding or calling that came to them not by the way of man. The confirmation can come by the word of GOD 1. 2. and by those in the Body of Christ 3. by the ability to do the work that you did not have or learn to do.

Okay. Can you give me an example?

 

[JaumeJ]

In my experience, the gift of knowledge is knowing something about someone you would not otherwise know unless God showed it to you.

This is like when Jesus saw Nathaniel before meeting him physically:

"When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”
“How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.”
Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”

Of course there are many other examples both before and after the crucifixion.

We have to remember: when Paul wrote about "the gift of knowledge" the New Testament did not exist. He was referencing, and teaching about, what was happening in the church between believers.

In my experience, the gift of knowledge primarily serves one purpose: the receiver, the one to whom the knowledge is spoken about, knows that God knows them and sees them. In all my experiences, the people are greatly encouraged by the gift of knowledge.

A certain man was once counseling a woman who had experienced trauma. Her emotions were depressed so she asked for help. As she became encouraged through the discussion the man said to her "You will even find the passion again to play the piano". Her eyes went wide and she asked, "How did you know I used to play the piano?"
"It's what I saw," the man said. As a believer this encouraged her a lot.

This is true.
One instance when I was sharing the Word of Salvation with a fellow student at the University of Illinois, he , a Jew, was quite taken by what I shared with him. Upon finishing with our talk, I asked him to give regards to all his friends in Haifa.
This boy had da very strong southern accent having been raised in Cairo, Illinois. With his eyes big as plates he asked, "How did you know I was born in Haifa?" I replied, "God told me."
Several times I have had d similar experiences, all to the glory of God, and my being available. He did it each time, never me deciding to do anything. God is good always, amen.

 

[TheLearner]

Do you see Jesus face to face, now that you claim that that which is perfect has already come?

Ephesians 4:13
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, growing into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.

 

[TheLearner]

When looking at the Strong's Greek Lexicon provided for 1Cor13:10 to check out the word "perfect," which confirmed what I thought it meant, I backed up a word and look at the Greek for "the"; 3588: The, the definite article. Including the female he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

The Bible isn't a female he, and neither is Jesus, so neither of these can be 'the perfect' which is being referred to.

In the Greek language, nouns are categorized into three genders: masculine, feminine, and neuter. Each gender affects the form of associated articles, adjectives, and sometimes even the nouns themselves, making grammatical agreement crucial. This gender system is fundamental for structuring sentences correctly in Greek, aiding in both clarity and meaning.
https://www.vaia.com/en-us/explanations/greek/greek-rhetoric/greek-gender-usage/

https://www.greekpod101.com/blog/2020/05/17/guide-to-greek-grammatical-gender/

 

[TheLearner]

It has been a long day of house cleaning. I got a minor injury and need to stay off my feet. Cool discussion here all.