Former pentecostal

[presidente]

I simply caution anyone thinking that personal prophecy is what the gift of prophecy is for, while using Old Testament scripture to do so

Your opposition to 'personal prophecy' contradicts scripture. There is an example of it in the New Testament.

Acts 21:8-11
8 On the next day we who were Paul’s companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. 9 Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied. 10 And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 When he had come to us, he took Paul’s belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’ ” (NKJV)

Paul also presents a hypothetical scenario in a positive light:

1 Corinthians 14:24-25
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you. (NKJV)

(because in the NT we come to understand that we have a relationship with God and no longer need a go between us and God)

Neither Paul nor Jesus drew the same conclusions you have. God did give Israel prophets because they did not want to hear God directly. Maybe you have an over realized eschatology on this matter.

Jesus, a few chapters before His crucifixion, says that He would send prophets. Paul tells of how He ascended and gave gifts to men.

Ephesians 4
New King James Version
34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,

Read full chapter
Matthew 23:34 in all English translations
Matthew 22
Matthew 24
Ephesians 4:8-11
New King James Version
8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also [a]first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

to study the scripture and you will soon come to find out that the OT prophets were there because they refused to listen to God and they were sent to correct and tell the sinful to return to God.

They were scared they would die if they heard God directly, and God gave them a prophet to start with, then other prophets. Prophets correcting them for sinfulness and refusing to listen happened a lot later on in history.

But Jesus did not decide to get rid of prophets and let everyone __only___ hear God directly. Your theory does not line up with Paul's writings either. Paul writes about how believers are members of the body of Christ, and we minister to one another through gifts God has given us.

What we are seeing here, in the long winded defense of the practice of what I call 'Christian fortune telling', is simply what too many believers have been led to believe is what the gift of prophecy is for.

The difference is my 'long-winded' response shows how your ideas contradict the scriptures. You are just stating your opinion, which contradicts the scriptures.

Calling prophesying 'fortune telling' also seems rather disrespectful toward the work of the Spirit. Was the prophet Samuel telling Saul where the lost donkeys he inquried about 'fortune telling'? Was his telling Saul that he would be ruler over Israel 'fortune telling'? Was Ahijah's prophecy to Jeroboam about being king 'fortune telling'?

Was Agabus prophecy about Paul being bound 'fortune telling'? If an unbeliever comes in and all prophesy the secrets of his heart, is that 'fortune telling'?

It is a sad testament to just how far some will go to avoid looking God in the eye and instead prefer to hear 'a word' from another person who is just as liable to fail as anyone else.

It is sad when people spout their own opinions without studying an issue out in scripture. It is sad when people disobey 'Despise not prophesyings.' in I Thessalonians 5. A proper balance on the issues acknowledges that value of true prophesying... in it's Biblical forms which include the 'personal' type stuff as well as other prophecies... while also being wary of false prophecies.

Do you go to church and hear teachings from the Bible? Why would you do that? Isn't that having a 'go-between' between you and God just as much as hearing a prophecy? Why have any fellowship with anyone at all if all there is to Christianity is just you, by yourself, and God.

Sit down and read I Corinthians 12. God distributes gifts to different members of the body of Christ and we minister to one another. There is interdependence there.... not 'Jesus and me' Christianity.

They will never tell you the horror stories of people who have been led astray by another person while believing it was God.

I could tell you a story about a supposed revelation that brought confusion. Most stories I could tell would be second hand. It would be foolish to think all prophecies are genuine. The Bible doesn't teach that. But your attitude toward it is not in line with scripture either. You reject 'personal prophecy', even though it is in both the New and Old Testaments.

When Paul gave instructions for church meetings...commandments of the Lord, actually, he did not say anything about a pastor or a sermon. He did say to 'let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge' and 'for ye may all prophesy one by one.'

Are you a believer? Then believe what scripture states.

Please follow this.

It does not tell you to go running to a person to hear from God.

The Old Testament indicates that such a practice is allowed. The New Testament does not forbid doing so and teaches that the Spirit gifts members of the body of Christ with prophesying.

 

[Beckie]

I share your concern about false prophets. The thing I would disagree with you is the idea that prophets cannot make ___mistakes___. There are all kinds of mistakes. Prophets are human. Moses turning down his call at first was probably a mistake. Moses hitting the rock the second time was a mistake. Elijah was mistaken about being alone. There were other people who had not bowed the knee to Baal.

If you are talking about prophesying falsely, they aren't supposed to do that. There was one prophet in the Old Testament who lied to the man of God from Judah about a revelation, tricking the man of God into disobeying God by having dinner with him, but then correctly prophesying the man's death. Again, prophets are human and are capable of sin, and it was a death penalty crime to prophesy falsely in the name of the Lord.

The same Lord Jesus Who warned about false prophets said,
Matthew 23:34
"I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes".

As I stated earlier, the slave girl that was following Paul and Silas was telling the truth about them, but she did that by the power of an evil spirit. Paul cast the demon out of her when he could no longer tolerate the demonic influence.

Don't tolerate unbiblical practices even if everyone else is 'doing it'.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Yes a man is only human and we make mistakes . This word game is not you are playing is not beneficial to the Body. Lets speak as if we are talking to children. Any one who claims he/she is speaking as a prophet will never be wrong about any prophesy. He or she may be wrong about which shirt to wear or where she left her keys .

 

[presidente]

Yes a man is only human and we make mistakes . This word game is not you are playing is not beneficial to the Body. Lets speak as if we are talking to children. Any one who claims he/she is speaking as a prophet will never be wrong about any prophesy. He or she may be wrong about which shirt to wear or where she left her keys .

This is not a word game, if you tell a new believer a prophet does not make _any_ mistakes... is that true. And about your new statement here, is there any guarantee that a prophet will be 100% in interpreting past prophecies?

In this same passage, Jesus calls John the Baptist a prophet, yet he was confused about how to interpret prophecy.

Matthew 11

3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

 

[Beckie]

Sticking to the Word mistakes will not happen. God's Word is true. Never mistaken never in error.

 

[Beckie]

This is not a word game, if you tell a new believer a prophet does not make _any_ mistakes... is that true. And about your new statement here, is there any guarantee that a prophet will be 100% in interpreting past prophecies?

In this same passage, Jesus calls John the Baptist a prophet, yet he was confused about how to interpret prophecy.

Matthew 11

3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

I do not agree with your understanding of the passage.

 

[Beckie]

This is not a word game, if you tell a new believer a prophet does not make _any_ mistakes... is that true. And about your new statement here, is there any guarantee that a prophet will be 100% in interpreting past prophecies?

In this same passage, Jesus calls John the Baptist a prophet, yet he was confused about how to interpret prophecy.

Matthew 11

3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Which of God's ,Biblical prophet's prophesies was wrong , mistaken ,off the mark etc?

 

[presidente]

Which of God's ,Biblical prophet's prophesies was wrong , mistaken ,off the mark etc?

You said do not make a mistake....but there was one proohet who lied about a revelation from an angel in I Kings 13 then prophesied something that came to pass.

 

[Beckie]

WOW that is one extremely interesting story of history. Brings this verse to mind

Gal_1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Years ago this was sung in church often,
Trust and obey,
For there's no other way
To be happy in Jesus,
But to trust and obey.

The dead prophet did not trust or obey the WORD given to him.

 

[presidente]

I think the story shows that a prophet could sin by sharing a false revelation, then genuinely prophesy if the Lord so chose.

Another difficult story is Balaam, whom Peter calls a prophet. He could hear Yahweh speak, but he normally resorted to divination, but prophesied by the Spirit of God over Israel instead. He uses his knowledge of spiritual things to hatch a plot to entice Israel into sin using sex with women and meat offered to idols to entice them to worship Baal of Peor, and is eventually killed in a battle.

 

[Polar]

Your opposition to 'personal prophecy' contradicts scripture. There is an example of it in the New Testament.

However that is not at all what you are trying to press upon us. Your model is not biblical.

Your employment of Old Testament scripture does not reflect the New Testament. We now are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and we do not need to have someone as a 'Moses' between us and God.

But it seems you would not have it any other way. People should be going to God and not to 'personal prophets'.

 

[Polar]

As I stated earlier, the slave girl that was following Paul and Silas was telling the truth about them, but she did that by the power of an evil spirit. Paul cast the demon out of her when he could no longer tolerate the demonic influence.

Don't tolerate unbiblical practices even if everyone else is 'doing it'

Isn't that taken from one of my posts?

It seems we do agree on the fact that prophets who actually do speak for God do not do so in error or are they filling people's ears with flattery and supposed plans from God for their lives

 

[Polar]

You said do not make a mistake....but there was one proohet who lied about a revelation from an angel in I Kings 13 then prophesied something that came to pass.

That was not a mistake. he was paid to prophesy falsely. Let's try to be truthful.

Here is a portion of that rendition from Numbers 22

21 When Balaam got up in the morning, he saddled his donkey and left with the Moabite princes.

22 God became angry that he was going. So the Messenger of the Lord stood in the road to stop him. Balaam was riding on his donkey, accompanied by his two servants. 23 When the donkey saw the Messenger of the Lord standing in the road with his sword drawn, the donkey turned off the road into a field. Balaam hit the donkey to get it back on the road.

24 Where the road went through the vineyards, it was narrow, with stone walls on both sides. Now the Messenger of the Lord stood there. 25 When the donkey saw the Messenger of the Lord, it moved over and pinned Balaam’s foot against the wall. So Balaam hit the donkey again.

26 Then the Messenger of the Lord moved ahead and stood in a narrower place where there was no room to turn to the right or the left. 27 When the donkey saw the Messenger of the Lord, it lay down under Balaam. Balaam became so angry he hit the donkey with his stick. 28 Then the Lord made the donkey speak, and it asked Balaam, “What have I done to make you hit me three times?”

29 Balaam answered, “You’ve made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand, I’d kill you right now.”

30 The donkey said to Balaam, “I’m your own donkey. You’ve always ridden me. Have I ever done this to you before?”

“No,” he answered.

31 Then the Lord let Balaam see the Messenger of the Lord who was standing in the road with his sword drawn. So Balaam knelt, bowing with his face touching the ground.

32 The Messenger of the Lord asked him, “Why have you hit your donkey three times like this? I’ve come here to stop you because the trip you’re taking is evil. 33 The donkey saw me and turned away from me these three times. If it had not turned away from me, I would certainly have killed you by now but spared the donkey.”

34 Balaam said to the Messenger of the Lord, “I’ve sinned. I didn’t know you were standing there in the road to stop me. If you still think this trip is evil, I’ll go back.”

35 The Messenger of the Lord said to Balaam, “Go with the men, but say only what I tell you.” So Balaam went with Balak’s princes.


The donkey was given speech to impede the Balaam who admitted he sinned.

I have no words (that would be tolerated in this forum) for the disgust I have for people who take scripture and twist to suit their own devices. You are representing the office of prophet falsely and I expect you will be rewarded accordingly. Sorry there is no donkey to speak to you but I doubt you would listen even then.

 

[Polar]

It's truly a waste of time to insist on staying with the Bible when someone is so embedded in their own practices so as to ignore what scripture states.

The last 5 pages are testament to that, so just hitting the ignore button and moving on

 

[presidente]

It's truly a waste of time to insist on staying with the Bible when someone is so embedded in their own practices so as to ignore what scripture states.

Is that your own advice to me about your embeddedness in your own opinion and how you won't accept the scriptures I have posted? Oh the irony.

The last 5 pages are testament to that, so just hitting the ignore button and moving on

I'll still post responses for the sake of others. I don't see the appeal of the ignore button.

 

[presidente]

However that is not at all what you are trying to press upon us. Your model is not biblical.

Your employment of Old Testament scripture does not reflect the New Testament. We now are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and we do not need to have someone as a 'Moses' between us and God.

My 'model' is found in New Testament scripture. In I Corinthians 12, we see one person exercises a gift and it benefits other members of the body of Christ. One of those gifts is prophecy. Acts shows Paul receiving a 'personal prophecy' from Agabus. The Spirit witnessed in every city, he said, of the bonds that awaited him. It is possible that came through 'personal prophecy.' Paul and Barnabas were even sent out by the Spirit after the Spirit spoke to prophets and teachers in Antioch. Timothy had a gift in him through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders.

It wasn't the case that everyone got everything all directly from God. Peter said as every man has received the gift, even so to minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. God has distributed his grace among believers and we are to minister to one another. It's not just 'Jesus and me' Christianity.

But it seems you would not have it any other way. People should be going to God and not to 'personal prophets'.

Do you hear God speak to you directly all the time? The New Testament tells us that God gifts some with the gift of prophecy, and it doesn't forbid asking someone if they got a prophecy for you. Running around doing that with strangers might present some dangers. But consulting genuine prophets in the Old Testament was a 'kosher' practice (at least if one was walking in covenant), not like consulting occultists. There is no restriction in the New Testament on doing so. It is not wrong to ask someone to pray for you if you are sick. Is it an affront to God to call for the elders of the church instead of __only___ praying directly to God? No, it is not. Is it wrong to listen to someone else teach the Bible and not hear teachings only directly from God? No. And the Bible does not teach that it is a sin to hear God through another gifted member of the body of Christ. And nothing in the New Testament says that the Old Testament practice of consulting with a prophet is now pagan or forbidden.

 

[Beckie]

Isn't that taken from one of my posts?

It seems we do agree on the fact that prophets who actually do speak for God do not do so in error or are they filling people's ears with flattery and supposed plans from God for their lives

I think I was quoting presidente he must have been quoting you. Yes we agree on the prophets.

 

[Beckie]

This thread seems to me to be a bunch of words trying to justify profit prophets.

 

[presidente]

This thread seems to me to be a bunch of words trying to justify profit prophets.

You can quote from the thread if you wish. Which words are you referring to? Probably most prophecies I've heard are from people who are not 'pros' in minister, not doing it to earn a living.

My posts are about returning to a Biblical understanding of this gift and ministry. I back up what I write with scripture.

 

[Beckie]

Having been around Pentecostalism for years . Grandfather and Dad both Pentecostal pastors just for the history. I have heard the "God has a word for crowd" Watched the slain in the spirit game. Heard both fake and real tongues. Shook my head at the leg pullers. My personal knowledge of fakes goes back to about 1955-6 . When man says, in any way or form, or skips the direct verbiage and implies he has a prophesy from God . He will not be mistaken in any way shape or form, or the 'word' is not from God. How does one justify that lie?

The story in Kings is very interesting. The prophesies were from God and they happened. The old man lied about the angel telling the prophet it was ok to come and eat. That lie, and disobedience resulted in the death of the prophet, not the old man. Yet what God says was/is true always true. Example that are obvious are the lies of Benny Hinn and company. Those tongue talking charlatans have and continue to do harm to the Body of Christ.

When i said a" bunch of words" i was only referring to the amount of words used.

 

[Polar]

I think I was quoting presidente he must have been quoting you. Yes we agree on the prophets.

He's quoted me all over the place LOL! The game was to direct comments to me personally rather than address any scripture I posted. He has ignored all scripture I posted and has said he thinks this or that about what I said. Very disappointed but not surprising considering the views he expresses.

He does not seem to want an actual discussion since his remarks are personal and there are people here who will not address the scripture you post, but want to drag you into some kind of personal conflict, then, when you have enough and say something they think is reportable, they will report you. I don't know if that is his game or not, but he certainly operates in a way that is subjective at least and downright dishonest at worst. He's on ignore.

Yeah we do agree.