Understanding God’s election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#781
Nov 20, 2018
22,846
8,324
113
#781
Rufus said:
So then you agree that the sons of men cannot will a change of their essence (nature), anymore than God can change his? And you agree that the physically dead cannot will to do anything? If so, how do you make a leap from that kind of inability to ascribe all manner of spiritual ability to the spiritually dead?
Click to expand...
This refutes every Calvinite dogma there ever was.....

Luk 15:18
I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

Luk 15:20
And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

======================================================================================

So does this.....
I am sure you do not know why. Which is also why you are a Calvinite.

2Ki 6:5
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.

2Ki 6:6
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.

2Ki 6:7
Therefore said ("COMMANDED") he (the Man of God aka the God Man) , Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.
 
M

MeowFlower

Active member
#782
Aug 25, 2024
461
236
43
youtube.com
#782
cv5 said:
This refutes every Calvinite dogma there ever was.....

Luk 15:18
I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

Luk 15:20
And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

======================================================================================

So does this.....
I am sure you do not know why. Which is also why you are a Calvinite.

2Ki 6:5
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.

2Ki 6:6
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.

2Ki 6:7
Therefore said ("COMMANDED") he (the Man of God aka the God Man) , Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.
Click to expand...
Rufus isn't Calvinist.
That question he asked about changing our human nature is just one proof.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#784
Jul 13, 2021
3,655
568
113
#784
Genez said:
And,. when put to the fire.
No Calvinist can explain irresistible grace.
They just flip to the same talking point you just gave.


EXPLAIN irresistible grace!!!!!!
Click to expand...
God, solely of His own volition, giving someone life eternal as a free gift apart from their deserving of it nor by their causing it.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#785
Feb 17, 2024
2,352
254
83
#785
Genez said:
Its not just skin... it is also the hormones and electrical brain impulses that were short circuited by the fall of Adam, causing us not able to will to do what is right, for our bodies never can reveal to us what would be right.
Click to expand...
Pure conjecture on your part. The Fall of mankind, while impacting the whole man in terms of how the sin nature was passed on by Adam to all his progeny, doesn't change the fact that the great emphasis in scripture is on the immaterial parts of man -- his essence and his heart. There's not one text in scripture that says that man's body is evil -- a heresy that the Gnostics believed. Conversely, there's no shortage of scriptures that teach that man's nature and heart are evil!

So, tell me, Mr. Genez, did Jesus carry around in his body sinful "hormones and electrical brain impulses that were short circuited by the the fall...?
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#786
Feb 17, 2024
2,352
254
83
#786
Genez said:
And,. when put to the fire.
No Calvinist can explain irresistible grace.
They just flip to the same talking point you just gave.


EXPLAIN irresistible grace!!!!!!
Click to expand...
For starters, get up to speed up on the unilateral, unconditional New Covenant promises in Jer 31, 32 and Ezek 36. For example, when God declares that he will give his covenant people a new heart, whose going to prevent him from performing his will?
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#787
Feb 17, 2024
2,352
254
83
#787
cv5 said:
This refutes every Calvinite dogma there ever was.....

Luk 15:18
I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

Luk 15:20
And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

======================================================================================

So does this.....
I am sure you do not know why. Which is also why you are a Calvinite.

2Ki 6:5
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.

2Ki 6:6
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.

2Ki 6:7
Therefore said ("COMMANDED") he (the Man of God aka the God Man) , Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.
Click to expand...
You're assuming in the Prodigal Parable that no grace was working in the prodigal's life. You're assuming that the prodigal came to his spiritual senses all under his own power. You're assuming that the prodigal wasn't made willing by God's power. Conversely, Jesus taught that "apart from me you can do NOTHING!" Makes perfectly good sense when we're dealing with spiritually dead people.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#789
Nov 20, 2018
22,846
8,324
113
#789
Rufus said:
You're assuming in the Prodigal Parable that no grace was working in the prodigal's life. You're assuming that the prodigal came to his spiritual senses all under his own power. You're assuming that the prodigal wasn't made willing by God's power. Conversely, Jesus taught that "apart from me you can do NOTHING!" Makes perfectly good sense when we're dealing with spiritually dead people.
Click to expand...
What is it about "I WILL" that is making you froth at the mouth?
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#790
Oct 12, 2017
2,838
418
83
#790
rogerg said:
God, solely of His own volition, giving someone life eternal as a free gift apart from their deserving of it nor by their causing it.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Click to expand...

That does not explain irresistible grace.
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#791
Oct 12, 2017
2,838
418
83
#791
Rufus said:
Pure conjecture on your part. The Fall of mankind, while impacting the whole man in terms of how the sin nature was passed on by Adam to all his progeny, doesn't change the fact that the great emphasis in scripture is on the immaterial parts of man -- his essence and his heart. There's not one text in scripture that says that man's body is evil -- a heresy that the Gnostics believed. Conversely, there's no shortage of scriptures that teach that man's nature and heart are evil!

So, tell me, Mr. Genez, did Jesus carry around in his body sinful "hormones and electrical brain impulses that were short circuited by the the fall...?
Click to expand...
No.. Jesus did not. For the woman's ovum does not carry the defective genes for the sin nature.

That is why we find Genesis 3:15 written as it was.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, ​
and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise ​
thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.​

The ancients did not refer to an offspring as the seed of a woman,
but of the seed of the man.

A woman's ovum does not pass on the fallen nature.
The man's sperm does.
That is why Jesus could have no human father, but alright with a human mother!


Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, ​
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— Romans 5:12​


That is why sin entered the world by one man, even though the woman was the first sinner.
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#792
Oct 12, 2017
2,838
418
83
#792
MeowFlower said:
God is Sovereign.
Click to expand...
So that tells us what irresistible grace is???! :unsure:

Sovereignty means He chose to allow for certain believers to believe irrational ideas after they were saved, and still keeps them saved because of having believed in Jesus Christ.
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#794
Oct 12, 2017
2,838
418
83
#794
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
This is preposterous. Mary's genes were as defective as Joseph's were.
Click to expand...
Not her Ovum..... Unfertilized ovum.

Look up Genesis 3:15?


And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; ​
He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”​
​
​
"Her seed == the ovum. "​
 
C

ChristRoseFromTheDead

Active member
#796
Nov 1, 2024
401
90
28
#796
Here are examples of seed of women. Ovum is not seed btw

And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the LORD shall give thee of this young woman. Ruth 4:12​
​
And Eli blessed Elkanah and his wife, and said, The LORD give thee seed of this woman for the loan which is lent to the LORD. And they went unto their own home. 1 Samuel 2:20​
​
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17​
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#797
May 21, 2022
5,814
2,266
113
#797
At least a more interesting discussion than the un-biblical lottery system of salvation.
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#799
Oct 12, 2017
2,838
418
83
#799
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Here are examples of seed of women. Ovum is not seed btw

And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the LORD shall give thee of this young woman. Ruth 4:12​
​
And Eli blessed Elkanah and his wife, and said, The LORD give thee seed of this woman for the loan which is lent to the LORD. And they went unto their own home. 1 Samuel 2:20​
​
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17​
Click to expand...

Word usage determines meaning. It can also mean "offspring."
Especially, when it was a man (Boaz) who was being addressed.


And all the people who were at the gate, and the elders, said, “We are witnesses.
The Lord make the woman who is coming to your house like Rachel and Leah,
the two who built the house of Israel; and may you prosper in Ephrathah and
be famous in Bethlehem. May your house be like the house of Perez, whom
Tamar bore to Judah, because of the offspring which the Lord will give you
from this young woman.”



Ruth 4:11-12

New King James Version
 
You must log in or register to reply here.