Another look at John 10.

[Cameron143]

What you call “seeking the approval of God” we call “obedience.” Jesus specifically said, “You are my friends—IF—you do as I say.” All I have to do to get the “approval”” of God is obey Him. James 1:22-25 tells us to be “Doers” of His word, to continue in his Law (commandments) and be a “doer of the WORK!” Not just a “hearer.” Christian’s who are seeking salvation by saying “we don’t have to do anything—Christ has done it all,” “once we are saved, we can never be lost,” have subscribed to the lies of Satan. A “lazy, do nothing religion is exactly what Satan knows will appeal to the most people. It is a false security. Add to that, the lie that “work” in religion is a “bad” word and can never be done or it’s not grace and you have the complete false doctrine that appeals to the most people and will cause you to lose your soul. Wake up! Open your eyes. Study the Bible for yourself! Really see what God says.

What you call obedience is your best attempt of outward conformity to the commandments of God. No one ever kept any commandment by attempting to keep a commandment. Commandments are kept as we walk in the power of the Spirit of Christ. He can and has and does keep every commandment perfectly. And the only time anyone has ever fully obeyed is as the are not living, but Christ is living in them.
You can't even tell me everything you need to do to keep the 1st commandment. You are welcome to try. And if you can't even tell me what is required of an individual in the commandment, how then do you conclude you are obedient?
And works are a great thing. Jesus is always at work. Thus, one moving with Him is equally busy.
So I am neither against obedience or works. I just don't want all my effort being burnt up. I prefer gold,silver, and precious stone.

 

[mailmandan]

It's possible because you have no control over the future and have no ability to know what you will become

Let's just say that I have more faith in God's preservation (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) than I do in self preservation.

 

[Cameron143]

It's possible because you have no control over the future and have no ability to know what you will become

But Jesus can and does, and it He who preserves us.

 

[Jimbone]

The context surrounding a verse is so important. Verses are not little “islands”. Sitting all by themselves in a “sea” of words. The context of a passage is necessary to get a true understanding of the passage.

In John 10, Jesus is using an analogy of a shepherd and his sheep. Obviously, this analogy is about Jesus and His followers. His “sheep” follow him because they “know” Him. We understand these “sheep” are the “saved.” Jesus says no one, not “thieves, or robbers” in verses 1, 8, and 10. And not “strangers” in verse 5, and not “hirelings in verses 12 and 13. Can steal or take the sheep away from Him. Verse 29. This illustrates the security of the believer who follows the “good shepherd”, Christ. These verse are used as “proof” that a saved person can’t lose his salvation. But that isn’t what this passage is portraying. This IS about “sheep” getting STOLEN, not LEAVING! That is not the same thing. It is true that when a saved person is IN THE FOLD OF Christ, no one can STEAL them away. However, this story DOES NOT address the issue of a saved person LEAVING the fold of Christ; thus scripture only says they can’t be taken away by another person or some OUTSIDE force.

Here is another story told by Jesus that DOES teach the TRUTH about “can a saved person lose his salvation.” It’s in Luke 15:4-7. Again we are talking about “sheep” and the good shepherd. Christ.
“What man of you, having 100 sheep IF HE LOSES ONE OF THEM does not leave the 99 and go after THE ONE WHO IS LOST? SO Jesus CAN LOSE A SHEEP after all!! Did some “stranger” steal this sheep? NO! This speep LEFT OF HIS OWN FREE WILL. HE left the fold of Christ and HE WAS LOST—not just physically in this story—HE WAS LOST SPIRITUALLY! I know this because in verse 7 JESUS calls him A “SINNER WHO REPENTS” and identifies him as the one who was lost from the 99 others. This is proof that a child of God can leave God and be lost.
John 10 is not even talking about the same thing —much less “proof” that a saved person can’t leave Christ and be lost.

So basically you're arguing that the power of God that draws us in and transforms us into new creatures, by resurrecting our dead spirits and reconciling them to our Father, the creator of everything, is something we can experience first hand and then walk away from?

That we can have the veil lifted, that we can see in truth the price paid for our sin, that we can now KNOW God is real and Jesus is the only way to Him and the wholeness we were created to have with Him..... and walk away from it. I can't speak for anyone else, but I couldn't. Maybe you could, but I'd have to argue that you never knew Him, and you've never truly experienced the real power of God. That you went out from us because you were never of us.

Again I do not understand the the need to argue the weakness, confusion, and ignorance of God in this way. A God who saves those who will throw it back in His face. A pointless God that just saves and hopes we act good enough afterwards. Really a cosmic probation officer that has no real control over His creation, just a nice guy God that gives some of us a chance.

This is not the God that saved me, nor the God that keeps me. This is not the God I read about in scripture either. This is a weak and pathetic God that I would want nothing to do with. My God saves in POWER and Jesus loses NONE of who the Father gives Him. I could NEVER walk away from my King, and NOT because I'm strong or good enough, but because He keeps me and guides me to ALL truth.

Look, you can not lose your salvation, but I don't mean that in the "I'm saved and can now sin as much as I want with no worry" kind of way most like to paint it when I say that. What I'm talking about can only be understood by those who've been born again in truth. Otherwise there will always be a missing piece in your walk with Him. Heck even when I believed we could lose our salvation, and I did believe this after being born again so I'm not trying to judge anyone for believing this, but even when I did believe this to be true I thought the same thing. "If I choose to come to Jesus am I then trapped? Can I not choose to walk away?". I would always preface this with "I could never walk away from Him, and don't see how anyone could, but I believe the choice is there".

See I had too high a view of our "choice", and too low a view of His power. We don't seek God, we are drawn to Him and we don't choose to repent, we are granted repentance as a gift. Our choice can no more save us than it can "unsave" us. It's all by His power.
I know most will turn this straight into "he is a Calvinist so dismiss anything he says, he believes God chooses who goes to hell".
Well for the record I'm not, and have never read ANYTHING of Calvin's, and do not call myself one, but I do believe my statement is biblical, and my experience lines up with it in every way as well. I don't expect my experience to be evidence for anyone but myself, and don't use it as such, but if it didn't all line up I most likely wouldn't hold to it because the other viewpoint is what dominates all the churches around me, so I'm sure I'd still think that way too if God didn't open my eyes to it.

 

[SaysWhat]

Is that what you get from that story? Read for yourself. Had the lost sheep already repented before the Good shepherd sought him? Maybe, because he was lost and in trouble. We can’t tell from the information given, when the sheep repented. It only says he did. Does this story in any way hint, or imply that the shepherd didn’t care about the lost sheep unless he’s repented? I see a shepherd concerned about one of his own. He had no way of knowing (in the story) whether the lamb was sorry or not. But these things are not as important as the question of whether this story told by Jesus is showing the possibility of apostasy. Be honest with yourself—your soul’s salvation depends on it.

A good shepherd will go after the lost sheep no matter what. That is what Jesus is saying.

Be honest and know this is a debate and your life doesn't dependent on it.

 

[GWH]

Even though believers have free will I don't believe that a genuine born-again Christian would ever repudiate their saving faith and lose salvation. I believe that God's saints are preserved forever (Psalm 37:28) and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until the redemption of the purchased possession. (Ephesians 1:13-14) In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

Oh, I see. Being raised in the Baptist denomination, I used to believe that, too, but I hope you have seen why I changed my opinion and will reconsider as you read every passage of GW I cite, because if God were going to nullify volition it would have been loving to force everyone to believe and be sealed from the get go.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
One of my favorite Leonardo DiCaprio movies is called Inception.

Basically: Leo and his team invade the subconscious area of the brain of
of this particularly loathsome man and implant thoughts in his head so
cleverly that he will never suspect they aren't his own.

Well; I'll probably come across as a kook for saying it, but I honestly believe
the paranormal world has the ability to do inceptions; and has been doing
them for years undetected.

● Eph 2:1-3 . . As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in
which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the
ruler of the kingdom of the air: the spirit who is now at work in those who
are disobedient.
_

 

[mailmandan]

Oh, I see. Being raised in the Baptist denomination, I used to believe that, too, but I hope you have seen why I changed my opinion and will reconsider as you read every passage of GW I cite, because if God were going to nullify volition it would have been loving to force everyone to believe and be sealed from the get go.

I was raided in the Roman Catholic church (which strongly opposes OSAS) but I now attend a Baptist church. It's not about universalism or fatalistic determination but a new creation in Christ and God's omniscience and preservation. God infallibly knows who his saints are but we don't.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
The one place on earth we might expect to be off limits to demonic
influences would've been the upper room with Jesus and his men just prior
to his arrest. But no, the Devil was there.

● John 13:21-30 . . Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified: I tell you the
truth, one of you is going to betray me. His disciples stared at one another,
at a loss to know which of them he meant. One of them, the disciple whom
Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. Simon Peter motioned to this disciple
and said: Ask him which one he means.

. . Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him: Lord, who is it?

. . Jesus answered: It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when
I have dipped it in the dish. Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to
Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan
entered into him.

Well; if even as sacred a place as that upper room was open to paranormal
activity, then just how much reliable spiritual information can visitors hope
to find on these internet forums where diverse ideas about Christ and
Christianity are offered like the wide variety of low cost junk for sale in a
flea market?
_