Gods will vs mans free will

[Magenta]

1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

 

[cv5]

Yes God obligated himself In covenant with man.

But he was never obligated to make covenant in the first place.

He freely chose to do so before mam was created.

I agree. Finally.

 

[cv5]

Yep, but unfortunatley for your argument paul does not say
You are destined (destination). He says you are predestined. You forgot the 'pre' part.

I clearly included this "pre" many times. Probably every time.

You just don't get it. A lot of people don't get it. So don't feel bad.

 

[cv5]

Your almost there..

Yes God freely chose to go into covenant with those whom he freely chose to do so.

Nevertheless, God was not, nor ever obligated to show grace to anyone.

If God was obligated to give saving grace to people then it is wages - merited..

Buddy.....I have been right all along. Without fail. On every point.

Why? Because I get it.

 

[phil36]

I agree. Finally.

Do you?

Buddy.....I have been right all along. Without fail. On every point.

Why? Because I get it.

But do you?

You said this:-

"It means a FUTURE DESTINATION. And has nothing whatsoever to do with the past.
Yet the hopelessly gaslighted (and none too bright) Calvinists think that: foreordained = predestined.


Future destination .. From what vantage point in time?

It was from before time itself. You disagree with this!

Paul using the past tense states:

"Having predestined us... according to God's will (Eph 1:5)".

Those he foreknew he aslo predestined. He foreknew you, and he predestined you to be his.

Your correct that destiny or a destination is a point in time toward which we are moving. "When we book airline tickets we [prebook], we do not book them to nowhere. We have a destination in mind, a place we are trying to reach (Sproul, what is reformed theology. pg164 [emphasis my own])".

Like prebooking tickets we foreknow what our plans are, and the final destination. God foreknew you/us personally and predestined us to in his family, we have the down payment niw and be in glory in Christ at the end of the age:

"...sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory (Eph 1:14)."

"The agent of predestination is God. In his sovereignty he predestinates. Human beings are the object of his predestination. In short, predestination refers to God's sovereign plan for human beings, decreed by him in eternity (Sproul, what is reformed theolgy. pg 165)."

Just be clear when we refer to predestination in regards to salvation, scripture means electing predestination... As predestination also includes "whatever comes to pass things that. (ibid)."

I am not of the opinion that you do agree contary to your statement. You deny that predestination was in eternity past, yet fail to give biblical data of when the 'pre' was. If you agree as scripture clealry states then all well and good. If you don't then when in space and time did God predestine. When in creation, did God predestine?

 

[Magenta]

No, just pointing out the FACT that Mary considered the whole dialog.Very carefully by the way. and she FREELY chose to obey.

Nobody contested that. Simply relaying the FACT that she was not asked.
Some don't like that fact and make up abominations in protest.
You seem to like arguing against things not said.
Ah, well. The peanut gallery applauds.

 

[cv5]

Future destination .. From what vantage point in time?

You fail to understand that WE are NOT outside of time. We have a beginning.
So you have TWO perspectives. And the Calvinists never fail to fail to understand the difference. You know.....the difference between infinite God and finite created men. And choose to stay that way. Too bad so sad.

So WE only have a FUTURE. And predestined FOR US is the FUTURE destination, a raised and glorified body in union with the Groom Jesus Christ. Do you have a glorified body yet? No you do not. From your perspective, inside of time, it remains a future that has yet to come to pass. So it is with every believer.

"It means a FUTURE DESTINATION. And has nothing whatsoever to do with the past." ..........for us his creation (you obviously failed to comprehend the obvious here yet again). Because you see, we did not EXIST IN THE PAST! Although God foreknew us and the fact of our CHOOSING Christ by drinking the cup of betrothal OF OUR OWN FREE WILL.

Therefore, God, knowing our free will decision, declare that we are "in Him". Why? Belief. Faith. The choosers choose to believe and receive, and they are now "IN HIM".......aka in the covenant of grace. And they are thereby given the title the elect, the chosen.

God on the other hand exists always in the present. So as far as He is concerned, everything happens at the same time.
So ONLY GOD is "pre" and He says so over and over again.

This is waaaaay past the pay grade of the Calvinist/Reformers who wear the veil.

How do I know this? This is how:
But rather as Sproul states 'what exactly does the biblical concept of predestination mean?'

Sproul had no idea of what this term means in context of the entirety of the Bible.
Not in his entire life. What a waste. And evidently neither do you.

Frankly, I feel like I won the lottery knowing what I know. Lucky me huh?

 

[Magenta]

Romans 5:12 Ephesians 2:3 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. We were by nature children of wrath.
.

 

[phil36]

You fail to understand that WE are NOT outside of time. We have a beginning.
So you have TWO perspectives. And the Calvinists never fail to fail to understand the difference. You know.....the difference between infinite God and finite created men. And choose to stay that way. Too bad so sad.

So WE only have a FUTURE. And predestined FOR US is the FUTURE destination, a raised and glorified body in union with the Groom Jesus Christ. Do you have a glorified body yet? No you do not. From your perspective, inside of time, it remains a future that has yet to come to pass. So it is with every believer.

This is irrelevant to the conversation. Man has no say whatsover on how, when and whom God predistinates. Of course unless you think its man who decides who God can and cannot elect?

"It means a FUTURE DESTINATION. And has nothing whatsoever to do with the past."

Pre - destination has nothing to do with the past. I leave you to your own thoughts, I am sure you are not convincing anyone but yourself here.

Although God foreknew us and the fact of our CHOOSING Christ by drinking the cup of betrothal OF OUR OWN FREE WILL.

Therefore, God, knowing our free will decision, declare that we are "in Him". Why? Belief.

Bingo, there we have it. Man holds all the cards.

The view of presdination that has been presented is certainly novel and enteetaining. Just not biblical.

Your view on mans free will is common fare arminianism, although I am not convinced you fully understand the position your trying to defend.

 

[cv5]

Future destination .. From what vantage point in time?

And don't ever forget the inevitable counterpart of this phenomenon in the OT.
When did Israel become God's elect? When exactly? When?
Right here is exactly when. As far as the Israelites are concerned. Who are finite created beings who had a beginning.

Precisely when is when they AGREED of their OWN FREE WILL to enter into the marriage covenant with YHVH.
After which they became the ELECT nation commissioned to preach salvation to the world.

Exo 19:8
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Did God foreknow them as a people? Did God foreknow their decision to agree to the terms of the covenant?
Did God foreknow their failure?

He sure did, because God knows everything all the time all at the same time.

Deu 4:25
When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
Deu 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
Deu 4:27
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

And God knows the inevitable fact of the full and final REPENTACE of Israel yet future.
Did you want me to post those passages too?

========================================================================

Yes, in the face of this prima facie evidence, the hopelessly clueless Calvinists continue to proffer their Bible verse soundbites.
But that would be their problem.....not mine.

 

[cv5]

This is irrelevant to the conversation. Man has no say whatsover on how, when and whom God predistinates. Of course unless you think its man who decides who God can and cannot elect?



Pre - destination has nothing to do with the past. I leave you to your own thoughts, I am sure you are not convincing anyone but yourself here.



Bingo, there we have it. Man holds all the cards.

The view of presdination that has been presented is certainly novel and enteetaining. Just not biblical.

Your view on mans free will is common fare arminianism, although I am not convinced you fully understand the position your trying to defend.

Whatever you might "think", your clock has been thoroughly cleaned and my job is done.
Now I have other important matters to tend to.

 

[phil36]

And don't ever forget the inevitable counterpart of this phenomenon in the OT.
When did Israel become God's elect? When exactly? When?
Right here is exactly when. As far as the Israelites are concerned. Who are finite created beings who had a beginning.

Precisely when is when they AGREED of their OWN FREE WILL to enter into the marriage covenant with YHVH.
After which they became the ELECT nation commissioned to preach salvation to the world.

Exo 19:8
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Did God foreknow them as a people? Did God foreknow their decision to agree to the terms of the covenant?
Did God foreknow their failure?

He sure did, because God knows everything all the time all at the same time.

Deu 4:25
When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
Deu 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
Deu 4:27
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

And God knows the inevitable fact of the full and final REPENTACE of Israel yet future.
Did you want me to post those passages too?

========================================================================

Yes, in the face of this prima facie evidence, the hopelessly clueless Calvinists continue to proffer their Bible verse soundbites.
But that would be their problem.....not mine.

Did God elect the hebrews because they chose him?

And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. Exodus 1:24.

The civennat with Abraham was long before the Exodus hebrews where even born.

And yes the Mosaic Covenant was conditional. Unlike the unconditional covenant God made with Abraham, where took upon himself covenant stipulataions.

 

[phil36]

Whatever you might "think", your clock has been thoroughly cleaned and my job is done.
Now I have other important matters to tend to.

No problem, have a blessed week ahead cv5.

 

[JohnRH]

God created man but gave man free will. Yet God wants man to give us our free will and live according to Gods will.
This intersection of free will and "discerning" Gods will, can be quite challenging.

Here is an example. I'm 51 currently out of work. I've been praying for God to guide me through this difficult time. To be honest, I DONT want to go back to corporate work, but the reality of finances and such might dictate i do so versus starting a new business on my own.
I've been praying and asking God to open doors and opportunities which requires faith. At the same time, God isn't a genie, so a job or new business isn't going to come unless I apply, network, etc. I must DO or ACT upon my own free will and or thoughts to make it happen. While there may be some Christians are many who might say patiently wait upon the Lord.

Another example, prior to be going back to church, I was listening to David Goggins (Navy seal, motivational speaker) and purchased his two audio books. Listening to his message of self-empowerment allowed me to lose 20+ pounds through dedicated working out and a strict diet. The mindset of "you are on your own" and you can do it was empowering. However, does this conflict with biblical principals as well? For the bible says "I am made perfect in your weakness." My point is we have the ability through our own free will do certain things, we can choose what car we buy, what foods we eat, surely, I don't need Gods discernment on everything, etc right?

I don't know if others feel this, but when I feel vulnerable (and humble) when I pray to God several times a day.
But when I feel like it's not my time (God doesn't or hasn't answer my prayer) then I say OK, and I'm going to make something happen if you get my point. Please correct me if I'm not thinking about this right.

Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Psalms 37:4 (KJV)

I think that delighting yourself in the Lord includes staying within the bounds of Scripture (as you currently know them to be). Then do whatever you want - which would be the desires of your heart that God has given you. Keep an eye out for God's interventions in what you're doing. The interventions would include changing circumstances, such as open doors and closed doors; and the Holy Spirit calling to your mind Scripture truths that you might have overlooked.

 

[cv5]

Did God elect the hebrews because they chose him?

And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. Exodus 1:24.

The civennat with Abraham was long before the Exodus hebrews where even born.

And yes the Mosaic Covenant was conditional. Unlike the unconditional covenant God made with Abraham, where took upon himself covenant stipulataions.

Here you go buddy. God literally baked free will into the creation cake.

Alain Aspect from Université Paris-Saclay in France, John Clauser from J.F. Clauser & Associates in the US, and Anton Zeilinger from University of Vienna in Austria, will share the prize sum of 10 million Swedish kronor (US$915,000) "for experiments with entangled photons, establishing the violation of Bell inequalities and pioneering quantum information science".

 

[ForestGreenCook]

"Calvinist" is a perjorative some used to describe those they disagree with whether they are Calvinists or not.


You deny the words of Jesus to say the natural man needs no help from God.
That choosing to believe can come simply from the moral will of man.

What do you make of Jesus' words in this John passage?

John 12:38b-40 “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord
been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Jesus very plainly states they could not believe, and that they were unable to
believe because God prevented it. Where is your free will doctrine in that?

Do you believe that those who were blinded to see the truth were spiritual Israel and were blinded because they turned away from God and began to worship idols (Zeph 3:11-13)

Do you think that the children of spiritual Israel had a choice, and chose to turn away from God, as all of us quite oten do, causing God to blind their eyes from seeing the truth?

 

[GWH]

God created man but gave man free will. Yet God wants man to give us our free will and live according to Gods will.
This intersection of free will and "discerning" Gods will, can be quite challenging.

Here is an example. I'm 51 currently out of work. I've been praying for God to guide me through this difficult time. To be honest, I DONT want to go back to corporate work, but the reality of finances and such might dictate i do so versus starting a new business on my own.
I've been praying and asking God to open doors and opportunities which requires faith. At the same time, God isn't a genie, so a job or new business isn't going to come unless I apply, network, etc. I must DO or ACT upon my own free will and or thoughts to make it happen. While there may be some Christians are many who might say patiently wait upon the Lord.

Another example, prior to be going back to church, I was listening to David Goggins (Navy seal, motivational speaker) and purchased his two audio books. Listening to his message of self-empowerment allowed me to lose 20+ pounds through dedicated working out and a strict diet. The mindset of "you are on your own" and you can do it was empowering. However, does this conflict with biblical principals as well? For the bible says "I am made perfect in your weakness." My point is we have the ability through our own free will do certain things, we can choose what car we buy, what foods we eat, surely, I don't need Gods discernment on everything, etc right?

I don't know if others feel this, but when I feel vulnerable (and humble) when I pray to God several times a day.
But when I feel like it's not my time (God doesn't or hasn't answer my prayer) then I say OK, and I'm going to make something happen if you get my point. Please correct me if I'm not thinking about this right.

You are so right! I tend to pray along the lines of the Lord's Prayer (Thy will be done) as I try to gain a better or more complete and correct understanding of God's will, especially as revealed in the New Testament. I had no career ambition, so my career zigged and zagged before I retired. I tended to envy friends who had career goals, such as becoming a lawyer or an engineer, but I did okay as a teacher and military chaplain. May you not be a victim of age-discrimination at this stage of your life, unless that is God's will!

 

[jacko]

You are so right! I tend to pray along the lines of the Lord's Prayer (Thy will be done) as I try to gain a better or more complete and correct understanding of God's will, especially as revealed in the New Testament. I had no career ambition, so my career zigged and zagged before I retired. I tended to envy friends who had career goals, such as becoming a lawyer or an engineer, but I did okay as a teacher and military chaplain. May you not be a victim of age-discrimination at this stage of your life, unless that is God's will!

Thank you brother for the words of encouragement!

 

[jacko]

Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Psalms 37:4 (KJV)

I think that delighting yourself in the Lord includes staying within the bounds of Scripture (as you currently know them to be). Then do whatever you want - which would be the desires of your heart that God has given you. Keep an eye out for God's interventions in what you're doing. The interventions would include changing circumstances, such as open doors and closed doors; and the Holy Spirit calling to your mind Scripture truths that you might have overlooked.

Thank you for the solid practical advice!