Gods will vs mans free will

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#81
God is a spirit being. (John 4:24) Were He to reproduce, God's progeny
would be a spirit being-- i.e. more of Himself --rather than the flesh and
bones of a material creature.
_
The body of Jesus was begotten by God. Jesus always existed. Jesus is God. Jesus moved into the body prepared for him in the womb of Mary. That body was begotten by God the Father.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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#82
The body of Jesus was begotten by God. Jesus always existed. Jesus is God. Jesus moved into the body prepared for him in the womb of Mary. That body was begotten by God the Father.
No, Jesus (the name of a man) did not always exist. The Son of God always existed, but Jesus came into this world in space and time to become God incarnate.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#83
God’s Will is that man would choose Life.

Man’s freewill is that man can choose Life or Death.

Personally, I choose God’s Will… I choose Life…. and we all know Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The LIFE. There is NO Life apart from Jesus Christ.

I choose Jesus Christ.
The life that God wants us to choose is not eternal life, which Christ has already accomplished on the cross for those that God gave him, but is that good and abundant life of peace, joy and contentment as we sojourn here on earth. This life can only be chosen by those who have been born again.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,709
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#84
The life that God wants us to choose is not eternal life, which Christ has already accomplished on the cross
for those that God gave him, but is that good and abundant life of peace, joy and contentment as we sojourn
here on earth. This life can only be chosen by those who have been born again.
Nice to see you again, FGC... I hope you are well .:)
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#85
God wants to give you Life but will not make the choice for you because He doesn’t want a robot. God wants to be with those that choose to be with Him-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

God has chosen to love you and give you Life but you must also choose to love God and choose Life.

The only other option is Death.

Which one do you choose…. Life or Death?
Death, according to Strong's concordance is "a separation". The life, in Duet 30:19, is not referencing eternal life, but abundant life of joy and peace that his children can have if they choose to follow his commandments. If they choose death, they will separate themselves from God's fellowship, but not from their eternal inheritance.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
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Oregon
cfbac.org
#87
The body of Jesus was begotten by God. Jesus always existed. Jesus is God. Jesus moved into
the body prepared for him in the womb of Mary. That body was begotten by God the Father.

FAQ: Was Jesus an implanted baby or a biological baby? In other words: was Mary his
surrogate mother or his natural mother?

REPLY: In the beginning, a prediction relative to Eve, said:

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he
will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." (Gen 3:15)

Also: the angel informed Mary that she would conceive in her womb. Well; according to
the birds and bees, a woman's ovum has to be involved in a baby's birth in order for the
little tyke to be considered a conception.

FAQ: From whence did baby Jesus obtain a Y chromosome for his male gender?

REPLY: In the beginning, Eve's entire body-- inside and out, front to back, top to
bottom, and side to side --was constructed with material taken from Adam's body. (Gen
2:21-22) So if God could construct an entire woman from some material taken from a
man's body, then it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to construct a teensy little
chromosome from a woman's body.

Seeing as how Eve is the mother of all women (Gen 3:20 & Acts 17:26) then any
material taken from Mary's body to construct a Y chromosome for baby Jesus would be
owed to Eve's body; and by construction: Adam's body.

The beauty of it is that a Y chromosome constructed with material taken from Mary's
body wouldn't be an alien substance created ex nihilo; but would be 100% natural, and
easily traceable all the way back to Eve, and from thence to the very dust that was used
to construct Adam's body.

I sincerely believe that what I suggest herein actually took place when the power of the
Most High overshadowed Jesus' mom per Luke 1:35; and if my suggestion is true, then
little Jesus was thoroughly a Jew-- biologically descended not only from David and
Abraham as all other Jews, but also from the Man that God created in the book of
Genesis.

Heb 2:17 . . He had to be made like his brethren in every way.

FAQ: Was the blood in Jesus' body human blood or God's blood?

REPLY: Jesus was put on track to take David's throne.

Luke 1:31-33 . .You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him
the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord
God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of
Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.

Candidates under consideration for David's throne have to be-- first and foremost --one
of his natural descendants.

Ps 132:11 . .The Lord has sworn in truth unto David; and He will not turn from it: "Of
the fruit of your body will I set upon your throne"

The New Testament verifies Jesus is the fruit of David's body spoken of in that oath.

Acts 2:29-30 . . Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David,
that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. Therefore
being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of
his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.

Rom 1:3 . . . His son; descended from David according to the flesh

The thing is: according to Lev 17:11, the life of the flesh is in the blood. So if the life in
Jesus flesh had been due to God's blood instead of David's blood, then Jesus' flesh
would not have been David's flesh; and Jesus would've failed to qualify for David's
throne.

* One of the oldest creeds in Christianity states that Jesus is fully God and fully Man.
Well that creed would be grossly mistaken if something other than natural blood was in
Jesus' flesh. Plus: on numerous occasions Jesus referred to himself as "Son of Man"
which, likewise, would be patently false were other than natural blood in his flesh.
_
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#88
There are certain things which God allows Christians to work out for themselves. Exercise and diet are included. In other things which are beyond us, we ask God's help. It may or may not come, and I know from personal experience. But we can continue to pray and hope that God will hear and answer. So there is no conflict between God's will and man's free will. We are to freely choose to obey the Gospel. Salvation is offered to all.
Eternal salvation was accomplished on the cross, by the sacrifice of Christ, for all of those that his Father gave him. Jesus's sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to mankind for their acceptance.

God has given mankind the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but God foreknew that none would choose to seek God, therefore, he chose a people to adopt as his children.

In the adoption process the father chooses the children whom he wants to adopt, and the children have no choice in the adoption.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,088
3,680
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#89
No, Jesus (the name of a man) did not always exist. The Son of God always existed, but Jesus came into this world in space and time to become God incarnate.
Yes, of course. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Semantics…
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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#90
Lafftur said:


God wants to give you Life but will not make the choice for you because He doesn’t want a robot. God wants to be with those that choose to be with Him-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
So when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, Lazarus at that point in time became a robot because he responded to Christ's power?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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#91
Yes, of course. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Semantics…
No, not really. Jesus the man did not always exist. Read Luke's genealogy, for example. Does it say that Adam descended from Jesus or the [preexistent] Son of God? Father, Son and Holy Spirit always existed but Jesus did not. The Son of God became a man.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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#92
Seeing as how Eve is the mother of all women (Gen 3:20 & Acts 17:26)...


From where did you get this notion that Eve is "the mother of all women"? Eve is the [spiritual] mother of all her godly seed, since Gen 3:15 implies that Eve was reconciled to God.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
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Australia
#93
Oh...but we are born with evil natures.
No we are not. We are born with a sin nature and that is in the body not the mind. Romans 7 could not be true if we were born with evil hearts (souls).
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
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#94
I chose to emphasize the reality that 1John 3:9 could never in a million years
apply to born-again Christians unless they were the progeny of a divine being.
But I showed you the word translated born or begotten is not monogenes as you keep trying to tell us but is gegennemenos. You want to ignore your basic premise is wrong, go ahead. I'm moving on.

Have a nice day.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
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#95
Well then he is right, our will is not free no matter what state we are in. So I do understand what you're saying and what you mean, and don't even disagree with it, but if this is the case then we should just leave the "free" out of it. Don't call being enslaved to your nature "freewill", and we can avoid this argument all together. Just to be clear though, when most people say freewill they're not talking about what we are defining here, they actually mean FREE will. That's why so many redefine it in these conversations, to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Freewill doesn't actually exist.
No he is not right because he assumes freedom means "without restraint" but that is not free at all. There can only be true freedom when true authority (restraint) is exerted. Without authority there is only chaos.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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#97
Well...on the other hand, the bible is filled to the brim with paradoxes...so what's one more? ;):coffee:
Yes, the Bible seems filled with paradoxes, if you are a Calvinist. And they keep "finding" more and more of them as they keep needing to explain away the logical contradictions inherent in their broken systematic. But you can't keep on fixing new patches onto an old garment and have the garment maintain its integrity.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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#98
No we are not. We are born with a sin nature and that is in the body not the mind. Romans 7 could not be true if we were born with evil hearts (souls).
And how does that sin nature not make man inherently evil? And why did Christ place great emphasis on the hearts of men from which all evil flows? And why did God promise under the New Covenant to give his chosen people new hearts? How come he didn't promise to give us all new bodies in this age?

Matt 15:18-20
18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart , and these make a man 'unclean.' 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'"

NIV
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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#99
Oh...but we are born with evil natures. Can anyone born of a woman be pure (Job 15:14; 25:4)? That is why man sins. Man is a sinner precisely because his heart is filled with sin. Even Jesus told his audience in his Sermon on the Mount: "If you being evil know how to give good gifts..." Jesus made a crystal clear statement about the essence of man. It is from the HEART (not the physical body, as you appear to believe) that all manner of evil proceeds. And the heart is the center of man -- it is where our mind, will, emotions and conscience reside.

Jer 17:9
9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?

NASB

Why do you think God gives his chosen covenant people a new heart under the new covenant instead of new bodies?
Job 15:14 is spoken by a man who God says did not speak correctly. I see you agree with that man. Join the dots.

Jesus did not say, "If you being completely evil know how to give good gifts..."

All kinds of evil proceeding from somewhere does not mean all that proceeds from there is evil.

"The heart is more deceitful than all else" does not mean that the heart is only capable of deceit.

Your eisegesis is showing,
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Yes, the Bible seems filled with paradoxes, if you are a Calvinist. And they keep "finding" more and more of them as they keep needing to explain away the logical contradictions inherent in their broken systematic. But you can't keep on fixing new patches onto an old garment and have the garment maintain its integrity.
There are no contradictions within the Doctrines of Grace. Those "contradictions" are monsters of your own worldly imagination. Maybe a friendly exorcism would do the trick for you... ;)