Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Everlasting-Grace]

Unfortunately James disagrees with you,

then James disagrees with Paul also Roman’s 4

in that Abraham's faith was only legitimized after his work of obedience to sacrifice his one and only son:

James 2:21-22
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

So although God declaired Abraham righteous before he did the one work God had to wait decades before he actually applied it to him? Ok.

This is only a problem for those out there who refuse to rightly divide the word of truth. Ahh, but the majority of Evangelical, Westernized Christianity claim they see no difference in what James said and what Paul said...both of which are true, but that only were written TO those to whom they were written. James was not writing to the body of Christ at that time, as is proven by James 1:1. The slight of hand some people like to play with the epistle of James, always while excluding the timeframe for when it was written in relation to Paul and the revelation of the mystery that Christ revealed only to him AFTER James had written that epistle...therein is an example for the importance for that division that the willfully blind remain indifferent.

What James wrote was absolutely true, but only to those to whom he had written at the time it was written.

MM

James did not contradict paul
paul wrote to legalisms trying to add works to the gospel
James wrote to licentious people claiming you can say a prayer and your saved so now you can live however you want as James said be doers not hearers only as is manner of some (those he directed his words too). If you claim you have faith
he never said they had faith he said the claimed to have faith only

 

[Rufus]

Unfortunately James disagrees with you, in that Abraham's faith was only legitimized after his work of obedience to sacrifice his one and only son:

James 2:21-22
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

This is only a problem for those out there who refuse to rightly divide the word of truth. Ahh, but the majority of Evangelical, Westernized Christianity claim they see no difference in what James said and what Paul said...both of which are true, but that only were written TO those to whom they were written. James was not writing to the body of Christ at that time, as is proven by James 1:1. The slight of hand some people like to play with the epistle of James, always while excluding the timeframe for when it was written in relation to Paul and the revelation of the mystery that Christ revealed only to him AFTER James had written that epistle...therein is an example for the importance for that division that the willfully blind remain indifferent.

What James wrote was absolutely true, but only to those to whom he had written at the time it was written.

MM

Not according to Paul; for he wrote of Abraham's faith and his subsequent justification:

Rom 4:1-3,
4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about — but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness....."9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!
NIV

We either have a very serious contradiction in scripture or some people don't know how to exegete passages. And by the way, Paul addressed both Jewish and gentile believers in Romans. Just sayin'....

 

[Magenta]

Romans 5:1-5

Romans 5:1-2a

 

[Magenta]

Galatians 2:16 A man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. .

 

[PaulThomson]

Well of course He can credit who He wills, but it's trying to TAKE the credit that I'm talking about. If you think you deserve credit for your salvation, any credit at all, then you have a reason to boast. Do you not? I'm not going to say anything about you, but I KNOW I have no reason at all to boast concerning my salvation, NONE. God gets every tiny bit of glory for that as far as I'm concerned. Even if someone drops a compliment on me now, I always point that straight back to Jesus. I say "anything good you see in me came straight from Him. I'd be interested in NONE of this, Nor would I do any of these things I do now before He saved me." I believe that is the truth, that without Him resurrecting my spirit and reconciling it to His Spirit to guide and teach me, I wouldn't do any of this stuff or think past my selfishness ever. I'd be stuck in the same pointless and blind deception I was in when He saved me. ALL Him, NONE me.

If you take no credit for God choosing you, and you were chosen by God for some reason only God knows but others were not, you too have a reason to boast. God chose you and not them for some reason.

Humans can boast about anything they set their minds on boasting about. Paul's point does not seem to be that we cannot boast, but it seems to be that we can't boast to God. No one I have met who believes they are saved by grace through faith, who also believes they chose to believe, boasts that they saved themselves. The people who seem to be proudest and boastful about being "Christians" and look down on other Christians, are those who claim they were selected by God in eternity past and have been loved by Him from eternity past, but he has hated the rest from the beginning.

 

[PaulThomson]

Abraham acted in faith and that was fulfilled by what he did

“Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:21-24, 26‬ ‭NIV‬‬

faith is only complete when we act upon it . think of what he’s saying .

Would it be faith if God told me that the world was going to be flooded and everyone will die , but if I build an ark like he says I’ll save myself and family .

But then I said I believe you but I’m not going to actually do what you said even though I believe the world is going to flood and everyone is going to die and if I build the boat I’ll be saved …..is that actually faith did I actually believe his word ?

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we hear what Jesus is saying we can start to believe him and follow after by faith

That would not be faith in God. It would be faith in something God had said, but it would not be faith in God.

If a despot told you he was going to have you executed tomorrow unless you renounce Christ, you might believe what he says but that does not mean you trust in him. God is looking for faith in Him, not just faith in propositions about Him.

 

[PaulThomson]

You do not have to claim to be one in fact 99 to 100 % of true legalisms deny it is what they are

all you need is one thing you have to do to earn salvation to be a legalist. Paul scolded the Jew just for circumcision. .

If Paul scolded the Jews who rejected the Lord as Messiah for proving themselves unworthy of aeonous life, what does that make those who accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah? What made them worthy of aeonous life?

 

[PaulThomson]

Again. I am sorry your god is limited. God does know the future. Not only does he know the future he knows who will be saved as he predestined based on his for knowledge. This is not a Calvinist thing it is just the basic fact. God does not save people he knows do not have real faith in him. He knows you better than you know yourself

I am not affected by your moralistic arguments, because moralistic arguments are logically fallacious. A position is not true just because you feel like it is morally superior. We both believe God knows all truth. We disagree on what "all truth" includes. Your believing that "all truth" includes the future exhaustively does not make your belief that God knows all truth morally superior to someone else who believes that the future is not yet true, and is therefore not something that exists to be known as truth.

 

[Rufus]

If you take no credit for God choosing you, and you were chosen by God for some reason only God knows but others were not, you too have a reason to boast. God chose you and not them for some reason.

Humans can boast about anything they set their minds on boasting about. Paul's point does not seem to be that we cannot boast, but it seems to be that we can't boast to God. No one I have met who believes they are saved by grace through faith, who also believes they chose to believe, boasts that they saved themselves. The people who seem to be proudest and boastful about being "Christians" and look down on other Christians, are those who claim they were selected by God in eternity past and have been loved by Him from eternity past, but he has hated the rest from the beginning.

That's a fallacious argument, since the "some reason" is never found in the sinners whom God chooses. Christians who understand this fact are filled with praise for God and thanksgiving for rescuing them. Boasting or bragging doesn't even enter their mind.

 

[Musicmaster]

So remind me again what the above has to do with my eschatology....

When one fails to rightly divide the word of truth, then almost anything goes, including Preterism.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

then James disagrees with Paul also Roman’s 4


So although God declaired Abraham righteous before he did the one work God had to wait decades before he actually applied it to him? Ok.

James did not contradict paul
paul wrote to legalisms trying to add works to the gospel
James wrote to licentious people claiming you can say a prayer and your saved so now you can live however you want as James said be doers not hearers only as is manner of some (those he directed his words too). If you claim you have faith
he never said they had faith he said the claimed to have faith only

Yes, James spoke of a different emphasis because he was teaching others under the Kingdom Gospel, not the Gospel of Grace that was given only to Paul by the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, they both spoke the truth in different times to different people. James wrote only to the Jews because Judaism was the only means through which Gentiles could obtain salvation. Paul's Gospel changed all that, this ushering in the Gospel of Grace for both Jews and Gentiles.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Not according to Paul; for he wrote of Abraham's faith and his subsequent justification:

Rom 4:1-3,
4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about — but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness....."9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!
NIV

We either have a very serious contradiction in scripture or some people don't know how to exegete passages. And by the way, Paul addressed both Jewish and gentile believers in Romans. Just sayin'....

Now you're getting it. Yes. James wrote about a different focus because when he wrote his epistle, the Gospel of Grace givon ONLY to Paul by Christ Himself, came along AFTERward. They both spoke the truth, but those were truths belonging to two different dispensations.

MM

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.

You do not understand what biblical salvation is

 

[PaulThomson]

That's a fallacious argument, since the "some reason" is never found in the sinners whom God chooses. Christians who understand this fact are filled with praise for God and thanksgiving for rescuing them. Boasting or bragging doesn't even enter their mind.

That is true for those who believe God reaches out for reconciliation, on the basis of grace through faith, to everyone without discrimination. They are filled with praise toward God and thanksgiving toward Him for rescuing them. Boasting and bragging does not even enter their mind.

It is the "we are the eternally elect" crowd who claims others must be bragging because the "we are eternally elect" crowd could see their believing in Christ as grounds for bragging. And yet the "we are the eternally elect" crowd would not accept that they must be bragging just because others could see their claim to have been unilaterally picked out by God for salvation as grounds for bragging. Try to be a bit more even-handed in your casting of aspersions. It could be that you are projecting.

 

[Musicmaster]

Mark 16:16-18
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So, if the same Gospel is what they were under at that time as is now in effect for us, even though they knew nothing yet of the mystery yet to be revealed to Paul long after James wrote his epistle, then why aren't those who believe that nonsense DOING the things promised under THAT dispensation?

The slick, slight-of-hand dodges are usually along the line of the necessity for those things no longer necessary with the coming of the scriptures, yadda, yadda, yadda, never minding, of course, that publication of the scriptures didn't happen until many centuries later, long after the cessation of those miracles.

The streams of excuses are plentiful. Some will even say that the baptism spoken at that time was that of Holy Spirit, even though the Greek Jesus used had to do with IMMERSION, not FILLING, and no mention of fire either. The fire came once, and only once, alighting upon the disciples as they awaited the coming of Holy Spirit AFTER Christ had been crucified. Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines this in verse 16 asthis: "a. The word is used absolutely, to administer the rite of ablution, to baptize."

So, sit and watch the attempts at squirming out from under this if there be any brave soul willing to try and tackle this in a manner that is not humorously filled with holes, and just downright foolishly a demonstration for eisegetical interpretations. I would venture to say that none of them, once bitten by a venomous snake, or who drinks arsenic, lead or any other poisonous thing, that they would croak like all others who did the same, and they certainly don't go into hospitals to empty them out as an act of obedience to the Christ they claim to obey.

MM

 

[Rufus]

When one fails to rightly divide the word of truth, then almost anything goes, including Preterism.

MM

Truth told: I actually landed on classical preterism because advocates of other systems were doing what you accuse me of, so I went against the grain -- plus preterism is biblical and makes perfectly good sense.

 

[Sipsey]

Mark 16:16-18
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So, if the same Gospel is what they were under at that time as is now in effect for us, even though they knew nothing yet of the mystery yet to be revealed to Paul long after James wrote his epistle, then why aren't those who believe that nonsense DOING the things promised under THAT dispensation?

The slick, slight-of-hand dodges are usually along the line of the necessity for those things no longer necessary with the coming of the scriptures, yadda, yadda, yadda, never minding, of course, that publication of the scriptures didn't happen until many centuries later, long after the cessation of those miracles.

The streams of excuses are plentiful. Some will even say that the baptism spoken at that time was that of Holy Spirit, even though the Greek Jesus used had to do with IMMERSION, not FILLING, and no mention of fire either. The fire came once, and only once, alighting upon the disciples as they awaited the coming of Holy Spirit AFTER Christ had been crucified. Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines this in verse 16 asthis: "a. The word is used absolutely, to administer the rite of ablution, to baptize."

So, sit and watch the attempts at squirming out from under this if there be any brave soul willing to try and tackle this in a manner that is not humorously filled with holes, and just downright foolishly a demonstration for eisegetical interpretations. I would venture to say that none of them, once bitten by a venomous snake, or who drinks arsenic, lead or any other poisonous thing, that they would croak like all others who did the same, and they certainly don't go into hospitals to empty them out as an act of obedience to the Christ they claim to obey.

MM

So, if nobody can come up with a good interpretation, pray tell us how those verses should be interpreted. Or, are you saying, maybe they shouldn’t have been recorded?

 

[Rufus]

That is true for those who believe God reaches out for reconciliation, on the basis of grace through faith, to everyone without discrimination. They are filled with praise toward God and thanksgiving toward Him for rescuing them. Boasting and bragging does not even enter their mind.

It is the "we are the eternally elect" crowd who claims others must be bragging because the "we are eternally elect" crowd could see their believing in Christ as grounds for bragging. And yet the "we are the eternally elect" crowd would not accept that they must be bragging just because others could see their claim to have been unilaterally picked out by God for salvation as grounds for bragging. Try to be a bit more even-handed in your casting of aspersions. It could be that you are projecting.

Anyone who truly understands that God rescued them from their pitiful, helpless state and brought them into his Kingdom of Light knows they have nothing of which to boast. Again, the problem is is that most professing Christians do not see themselves (and perhaps never have) as being helpless, powerless and in need of rescuing. Yet, this is precisely how scripture portrays the elect prior to salvation (Col 1:13; Gal 1:3-4; Rom 5:.6). When God's electing, effectual grace motivated by his eternal love for his elect in Christ is truly apprehended in the human heart, the only true response that is evoked humility and thanksgiving and praise.

 

[PaulThomson]

Anyone who truly understands that God rescued them from their pitiful, helpless state and brought them into his Kingdom of Light knows they have nothing of which to boast. Again, the problem is is that most professing Christians do not see themselves (and perhaps never have) as being helpless, powerless and in need of rescuing. Yet, this is precisely how scripture portrays the elect prior to salvation (Col 1:13; Gal 1:3-4; Rom 5:.6). When God's electing, effectual grace motivated by his eternal love for his elect in Christ is truly apprehended in the human heart, the only true response that is evoked humility and thanksgiving and praise.

Anyone who truly understands that God rescued them from their pitiful, helpless state and brought them into his Kingdom of Light knows they have nothing of which to boast. Again, the problem is that most professing Christians, contrary to Calvinist assertions, do see themselves as being helpless, powerless and in need of rescuing. This is precisely how scripture portrays every sinner prior to salvation (Col 1:13; Gal 1:3-4; Rom 5:.6). When God's grace motivated by his eternal love in Christ for all people is truly apprehended in the human heart, the only true response that is evoked is humility and thanksgiving and praise.

 

[PaulThomson]

Anyone who truly understands that God rescued them from their pitiful, helpless state and brought them into his Kingdom of Light knows they have nothing of which to boast. Again, the problem is that most professing Christians, contrary to Calvinist assertions, do see themselves as being helpless, powerless and in need of rescuing. This is precisely how scripture portrays every sinner prior to salvation (Col 1:13; Gal 1:3-4; Rom 5:.6). When God's grace motivated by his eternal love in Christ for all people is truly apprehended in the human heart, the only true response that is evoked is humility and thanksgiving and praise.

That should say, " ... Again, the problem for Calvinists is that most professing Christians, contrary to Calvinist assertions, do see themselves as being helpless, powerless and in need of rescuing...."