Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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See post number 4416. Your response is not visible because it got swallowed up in the quoted part
because the quote tags were messed with when you altered the text. This has happened many times
over a number of days especially between you and MM, and then the messed-up post gets quoted, and
it just gets worse from there on in (or out). It is easily fixed if you catch it in time (5 minute edit window).
because the quote tags were messed with when you altered the text. This has happened many times
over a number of days especially between you and MM, and then the messed-up post gets quoted, and
it just gets worse from there on in (or out). It is easily fixed if you catch it in time (5 minute edit window).
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See post number 4416. Your response is not visible because it got swallowed up in the quoted part
because the quote tags were messed with when you altered the text. This has happened many times
over a number of days especially between you and MM, and then the messed-up post gets quoted, and
it just gets worse from there on in (or out). It is easily fixed if you catch it in time (5 minute edit window).
because the quote tags were messed with when you altered the text. This has happened many times
over a number of days especially between you and MM, and then the messed-up post gets quoted, and
it just gets worse from there on in (or out). It is easily fixed if you catch it in time (5 minute edit window).
That is so odd. I cannot see what you wrote unless I expand the quote box!
And if you look at the closing tag, that is why... the font needs to be uniform, all one type, either all bolded or not
etc, and matching the opening quote tags as well I think, although one can be capitalized and the other not.
And if you look at the closing tag, that is why... the font needs to be uniform, all one type, either all bolded or not
etc, and matching the opening quote tags as well I think, although one can be capitalized and the other not.
[Jos 23:14 KJV]
14 And, behold, this day I [am] going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, [and] not one thing hath failed thereof.
[Jos 23:14 ESV]
14 "And now I am about to go the way of all the earth, and you know in your hearts and souls, all of you, that not one word has failed of all the good things that the LORD your God promised concerning you. All have come to pass for you; not one of them has failed.
[Jos 23:15 KJV]
15 Therefore it shall come to pass, [that] as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
[Jos 23:15 ESV]
15 But just as all the good things that the LORD your God promised concerning you have been fulfilled for you, so the LORD will bring upon you all the evil things, until he has destroyed you from off this good land that the LORD your God has given you,
[Jos 23:16 KJV]
16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.
[Jos 23:16 ESV]
16 if you transgress the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them. Then the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you, and you shall perish quickly from off the good land that he has given to you."
Nope, it's been completely fulfilled.
Josh 21:43-45
43 So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. 45 Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.
NIV
This is a classical example of not understanding the Abrahamic Covenant and the four seeds of that covenant. Note verse 45 very carefully wherein it is stated that "not one of all the the Lord's good promises to the HOUSE of ISRAEL (i.e. national Israel) failed..." National Israel was never Abraham's spiritual seed. They were Abraham's "special seed" by natural descent as a chosen nation. Only Abraham's Spiritual Seed, i.e. individual true believers, are the recipients of God's unconditional, eternal promises. National Israel was Abraham's chosen Special Seed by natural descent because they enjoyed special privileges that God did not give to any other nation.
Moreover, the land promises to this Special Seed was most certainly conditional! Read the Curses and Blessings in Deut 28 and 29, and in Dan 9, especially early in the chapter in Daniel's prayer. If remaining in the Land wasn't conditioned on national Israel keeping the Mosaic Law Covenant, then why in the world was Israel driven out of the Land three times!?
More proof of what I have said is true can be found in Rom 4:13. The offspring (or seed) spoken of in this verse is Abraham's Spiritual Seed who received the promise that Abraham would be heir of the entire world, not just the Land of Canaan! And this verse also proves that all of Abraham's Spiritual Descendants (which should never be confused with descendants according to the flesh) will, after the General Resurrection, will spend eternity on this renewed earth that will be restored to its Edenic glory and then some!
Josh 21:43-45
43 So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. 45 Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.
NIV
This is a classical example of not understanding the Abrahamic Covenant and the four seeds of that covenant. Note verse 45 very carefully wherein it is stated that "not one of all the the Lord's good promises to the HOUSE of ISRAEL (i.e. national Israel) failed..." National Israel was never Abraham's spiritual seed. They were Abraham's "special seed" by natural descent as a chosen nation. Only Abraham's Spiritual Seed, i.e. individual true believers, are the recipients of God's unconditional, eternal promises. National Israel was Abraham's chosen Special Seed by natural descent because they enjoyed special privileges that God did not give to any other nation.
Moreover, the land promises to this Special Seed was most certainly conditional! Read the Curses and Blessings in Deut 28 and 29, and in Dan 9, especially early in the chapter in Daniel's prayer. If remaining in the Land wasn't conditioned on national Israel keeping the Mosaic Law Covenant, then why in the world was Israel driven out of the Land three times!?
More proof of what I have said is true can be found in Rom 4:13. The offspring (or seed) spoken of in this verse is Abraham's Spiritual Seed who received the promise that Abraham would be heir of the entire world, not just the Land of Canaan! And this verse also proves that all of Abraham's Spiritual Descendants (which should never be confused with descendants according to the flesh) will, after the General Resurrection, will spend eternity on this renewed earth that will be restored to its Edenic glory and then some!
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This site is running on lower end, cheap software, so it doesn't have anywhere near the dynamic capabilities as other sites that use higher end software that make it easier to create posts without having to open and close quotes manually. I used to be a webmaster for a Christian forum site years ago, and there are still lots of sites using old, antiquated PHP packages.
MM
MM
Back to the idea of people allegedly losing their salvation:
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Some must see the Lord as too weak and feeble in His ability to successfully transform those who believe by faith Paul's Gospel he received directly from Christ Jesus. When one is transformed, then he is a new creation, and will not turn away in denial and disbelief. However, there are those who have observed one, two, maybe more, people who claim to have been "true" believers who had been transformed by the Power of Christ, and yet slipped out from under the transformation and walked away.
So, the inescapable fact remains that mere belief in some sort of weakness of inferiority in the power of Christ is nothing more than a false belief among many, for dogs who return to their vomit were never changed into anything other than the dogs that they are. In Christ, we become majestic beings who have been imputed the very righteousness of Christ, but Satan loves hearing people question and deny that work of Christ in the lives of His TRUE followers.
Only dogs return to their vomit, not transformed believers. It's interesting that nobody here who stands behind that false doctrine laid claim to have been one of those who lost their salvation in the past. Most always point at others, into whose hearts they cannot see. Testimony is meaningless when spoken by those who are not transformed.
The antagonists out there will also vomit more of their worthless antagonisms against the Most High and His ability to hold onto those who are His. So what? Antagonists have nothing of value to contribute. Rational discussion is useful, but bantering and bickering makes for nothing but hardship and unsightly things for others to find any blessing within.
MM
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Some must see the Lord as too weak and feeble in His ability to successfully transform those who believe by faith Paul's Gospel he received directly from Christ Jesus. When one is transformed, then he is a new creation, and will not turn away in denial and disbelief. However, there are those who have observed one, two, maybe more, people who claim to have been "true" believers who had been transformed by the Power of Christ, and yet slipped out from under the transformation and walked away.
So, the inescapable fact remains that mere belief in some sort of weakness of inferiority in the power of Christ is nothing more than a false belief among many, for dogs who return to their vomit were never changed into anything other than the dogs that they are. In Christ, we become majestic beings who have been imputed the very righteousness of Christ, but Satan loves hearing people question and deny that work of Christ in the lives of His TRUE followers.
Only dogs return to their vomit, not transformed believers. It's interesting that nobody here who stands behind that false doctrine laid claim to have been one of those who lost their salvation in the past. Most always point at others, into whose hearts they cannot see. Testimony is meaningless when spoken by those who are not transformed.
The antagonists out there will also vomit more of their worthless antagonisms against the Most High and His ability to hold onto those who are His. So what? Antagonists have nothing of value to contribute. Rational discussion is useful, but bantering and bickering makes for nothing but hardship and unsightly things for others to find any blessing within.
MM
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Then explain Lev 26 for us. especially verses 27 through 45. And explain why God said he would do what he did not only through assyria and Babylon. but what he did through rome in ad 70. and what he promised he would do if they repented?
Again, this is an ETERNAL COVENANT
An eternal covenant does not end.
Yet God promised his NATURAL SEED a plot of land in the middle east. and he made a specific promise to them.
Not only this, he re-iterated this promise through Abraham's son (Issac) and his grandson (Jacob) through with his 12 sons bear the name of this chosen nation.
Yes. The eternal reward of salvation is given to his spiritual seed (we are part of this) but we have nothing to do with his national seed..Which God chose for himself for a purpose. and gave them an eternal promise. which had nothing to do with anyone salvation,.
No actually it was not. I shared the verses where God gave it, I can also share when he confirmed the covenant with Issac and Jacob.
There was no condition for them to have the land.
later there was a condition if they would be able to live in that land in peace. but that has no bearing on the eternal promise. which stands today
Remaining in the land is not the topic of our discussion. The topic is who does the land belong to. was it a gift of God to that nation. That God has no taken away from them.
And lev 26 will give you your answer..
Romans 4 spoke of the eternal salvation aspect. Not the land promise.
Please go back and restudy the abrahamic promise Again, I would focus on Lev 26.. then look at all the OT prophecies which show Israel will not only repent ( a condition required, and a condition Daniel tried to do in his prayer to God in dan 9) and differentiate the land promise from the blessing of the whole earth promise.
Again, this is an ETERNAL COVENANT
An eternal covenant does not end.
Yet God promised his NATURAL SEED a plot of land in the middle east. and he made a specific promise to them.
Not only this, he re-iterated this promise through Abraham's son (Issac) and his grandson (Jacob) through with his 12 sons bear the name of this chosen nation.
Yes. The eternal reward of salvation is given to his spiritual seed (we are part of this) but we have nothing to do with his national seed..Which God chose for himself for a purpose. and gave them an eternal promise. which had nothing to do with anyone salvation,.
No actually it was not. I shared the verses where God gave it, I can also share when he confirmed the covenant with Issac and Jacob.
There was no condition for them to have the land.
later there was a condition if they would be able to live in that land in peace. but that has no bearing on the eternal promise. which stands today
Remaining in the land is not the topic of our discussion. The topic is who does the land belong to. was it a gift of God to that nation. That God has no taken away from them.
And lev 26 will give you your answer..
Romans 4 spoke of the eternal salvation aspect. Not the land promise.
Please go back and restudy the abrahamic promise Again, I would focus on Lev 26.. then look at all the OT prophecies which show Israel will not only repent ( a condition required, and a condition Daniel tried to do in his prayer to God in dan 9) and differentiate the land promise from the blessing of the whole earth promise.
@Beckworth
Not really, faithfulness isnt the condition to gain eternal life, its the result of being given the Gift of eternal life, a Gift given by and through the Lord Jesus Christ Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
He gifts it to as many as the Father has given to Him in Eternal Election Jn 17:2-3
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Not really, faithfulness isnt the condition to gain eternal life, its the result of being given the Gift of eternal life, a Gift given by and through the Lord Jesus Christ Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
He gifts it to as many as the Father has given to Him in Eternal Election Jn 17:2-3
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
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