Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="Musicmaster, post: 5358293, member: 305060"]I'm curious, if you don't mind. You believe that you and all other believers will dwell in the New Jerusalem?

I found one verse where there is any mention of a "heavenly kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Where will the body of Christ reside in eterntiy?

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

The body of Christ, therefore, will not dwell in that city on the new earth. Neither the New earth nor the New Jerusalem are in Heaven, but in a new creation like this one, except that it will not be corrupted with sin. We, on the other hand, will be in Heaven with the Lord, as the above verse clearly states, and is supported by these:

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Hebrews 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Replacement theology teaches that we, the Church, replaced Israel, thus receiving all the promises aimed at Israel, which is a doctrine of demons. As an Israeli who is a member of the body of Christ, I find that corrupt belief system offensive and downright wicked, but it is what some believe.

MM[/QUOTE]

You really believe that New Jerusalem is a PLACE? Are you serious? It's not a place, but a PEOPLE! In fact, to be more precise, it's a HOLY people who will dwell in God's temple forever and ever.

Rev 21:1-4
21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
NIV

And,

Rev 21:9-14
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
NIV

So here are the facts:

New Jerusalem = Bride (Body) of Christ
This "city" comes down from heaven to earth
Jews who had died as believers will occupy this earth, as they are represented by the 12 gates
Gentiles who died as believers will also occupy this earth, as they are represented by 12 foundations.

Therefore, Heaven is a short intermediate "pit stop" where all believers go until the Parousia. After that the eternal dwelling place of all the saints will be the restored and renewed earth, which was always God's intention from the very beginning of creation.

 

[Musicmaster]

What kingdom was Israel under when God cut his covenant with Abraham -- a covenant he made long before Issac was even born?

Are there aren't two different gospels either. Typical Dispen insanity.

And yet those who believe it's all one happy little gospel simply refuse to observe the differences throughout. Antagonism will not prove your case. I have provided quotes right from scripture where even Paul referenced the different dispensations. You can discredit Jesus, James, Paul, Peter, et al, but that only shows that you choose to ignore the obvious. That's on you, bud.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

You really believe that New Jerusalem is a PLACE? Are you serious? It's not a place, but a PEOPLE! In fact, to be more precise, it's a HOLY people who will dwell in God's temple forever and ever.

Rev 21:1-4
21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
NIV

And,

Rev 21:9-14
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
NIV

So here are the facts:

New Jerusalem = Bride (Body) of Christ
This "city" comes down from heaven to earth
Jews who had died as believers will occupy this earth, as they are represented by the 12 gates
Gentiles who died as believers will also occupy this earth, as they are represented by 12 foundations.

Therefore, Heaven is a short intermediate "pit stop" where all believers go until the Parousia. After that the eternal dwelling place of all the saints will be the restored and renewed earth, which was always God's intention from the very beginning of creation.

Tell you what...I'll let YOU tell John that he was mistaken in what he saw:

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Generally speaking, those who allegoricalize scripture into saying something vastly different from what it says, all in an attempt to try and make it fit personal interpretations, that's an old trick I see liberal theologians practicing who are now teaching in modern Seminary (Cemetary) and Bible colleges. Many of those institutions are cranking out atheistic, gnostic, agnostic, Eastern mystic fuss-buckets populating so many of the modern institutional church pulpits.

If you're going to apply to those types, make sure your resume' points out your subjective system of interpretation. They will welcome you with open arms.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

To answer the first question, I guess, yes! I think myself and all other believers will eventually dwell in the New Jerusalem, which at the moment is a heavenly city and it's where our heavenly hope is.

Exactly like Paul's and Peter's hope is heavenly as you quoted, to me unbelief wants a earthly kingdom and earthly blessings, for example in the gospel accounts unbelief hoped for a Messiah who was going to overthrow Roman rule, and set up the physical kingdom and have Israel Rule, therefore they rejected Christ who seemed to speaking of another kingdom, they were wanting a physical kingdom right then and there which was why they ended up choosing Barabbas over Jesus, who instigated a insurrection.

It's the unbelieving Jews who will convert and confess Messiah and their having crucified Him (Zechariah 10-12). The earthly blessings will realized by them, not myself as I am already in Christ, and therefore no longer a Jew. I will dwell in Heavenly places eternally with all the rest of the body of Christ, comprised of both former Jews and former Gentiles. 2 Corinthians 5:1 makes that very clear to us.

The tribulation saints, who will not be a part of the body of Christ, they will populate the new earth comprising the nations upon the new earth, with the remnant Jews populating the new Jerusalem upon the new earth. Wanted to explain that for the benefit of others lurking in the wings...

I guess I see my hope as upward and dwelling in heavenly places where the bride of Christ dwells with her Husband.

The body of Christ is not the bride of Christ. Remnant Israel and historic Israel who were faithful to the Lord under the Law, they will be the bride of Christ.

It's interesting to me that there are those out there, not you, who have expressed disdain at the idea of dwelling in Heavenly places, but rather want to be on the new earth. I personally can't imagine anyone feeling that way given that all that the Lord has prepared for the different groupings of people in eternity will be so far beyond imagination, that it will be a pleasure to serve in whatever place and capacity He has set forth for us all.

I love hearing of Israeli's who become Christians, When I read of the promises for Israel, I also see earthly promises which I don't even want to receive, I mean why would I want to live on a sinful earth in a mortal body, and I see that those like Abraham also did not care about the earthly promises but instead looked for the heavenly promise, So I don't think the Church has replaced Israel just that we have joined in the heavenly promises, while God will still fulfill the earthly promises to Israel.

Precisely.

But Im curious now, how do you see the new Jerusalem that descends to earth, who dwells there and if or where do we dwell?

As stated above, it will be ancient Israelis who were faithful to the Mosaic Law, and the remnant Israelis who remain at the Second Coming and mourn as if for their first born son when they see Him descending to destroy their enemies. 2/3rds of my brethren will be wiped out right before He appears at His Second Coming during the seven years of Jacob's 70th heptad. Half of the entire population of this earth will be wiped out be the end of that tribulation. 1/4th of the earth's population will be wiped out in just the first half of the tribulation, with another 1/3rd in the second half of what remains...which is half of the original number at the beginning of the tribulation.

There is much more I could say about all of us who will dwell in Heavenly places rather than upon the new earth, but most are not prepared for that kind of information, and could not handle it on account of having been raised in this wicked, Westernized Christianity with all its socially engineered theologies that plug the understanding of so many just like a plugged toilet, so I will leave that alone at this time as it would not be value added, per se.

The Lord is praised and glorious. Amen.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Are you aware that the Gr. term gees (Strong's 1093) is the same term that is also often translated "land", "ground", etc.? (See Mat 2:6, 20-21; 4:15; Mk 9:20; 14: 35; Lk 4:25; Jude 1:5, etc.) You're obviously assuming, along with KJV translators (and other translators for other versions) that that is the correct rendering. But the YLT, as another example, renders the phrase "over the fourth part of the land". You obviously have never performed a word usage study on "gees". Of course, what largely determines correct usage would the context of scripture. The rendering "land" would fit much better with the opening chapter of Revelation, as well as the larger context of the bible such as Dan 9, Mat 24, etc.. The YLT renders Rev 1:7 as follows:

Rev 1:7
7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!
YLT

And the Darby, another literal translation reads:

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him. Yea. Amen.
Darby

"Tribes of the earth" simply doesn't fit the context here since the tribes of the earth did not "pierce him", so why would they "wail"? Rather, the [Jewish] tribes of the Land did! The Jews (especially believers) living during the during the Jewish Wars (67-70 A.D. ), they would have understood what was going on because Jesus told the Jews that they would "see" him coming on the clouds in judgment (Mat 24:30; 26:64, etc.). Again, the "tribes of the earth" would not have witnessed the Great Tribulation of 70 A.D. Jesus came in judgment in 70 A.D. but not visibly. He came in judgment the same way God came in judgment against Egypt (Isa 19:1).

Another huge clue that "land" is the correct rendering are all the instances where John writes basically that things he's writing "must shortly take place" (or equivalent phrases) (Rev 1:1. He was telling his audience what they were going to witness very soon -- the same audience that would have been included in Jesus' "this generation" prophecy in Mat 24, etc.

Your vaunted Great Tribulation ship sailed long ago and left you stranded at port; for most of Revelation has already been fulfilled in 70 A.D.

Of course, if you apply your math to the land of Palestine, then you could begin to understand why it's called the "great tribulation".

Yes, I am quite aware of the corrupted manuscripts that the YLT and other of our modern translations are based upon...the ten or so Alexandrian manuscripts that disagree with each other at a considerably higher level of percentages than anywhere near what is seen in the Textus Receptus, but, hey, that's an argument like Calvinism, which will never see everyone coming to agreement this side of eternity, so it's not worth getting into. The Vaticanus, Aleph, B and C, to name but a few, are just SOME of the horrific manuscripts that serve as the "higher authorities" for the newer translations that corrupt the word of God in unbelievable ways...

Go for it...

MM

 

[Pilgrimshope]

“On the other hand, one of Abraham's seeds is his SPIRITUAL seed,”

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭

“and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:18‬ ‭

“I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19-20‬ ‭

“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Yes, the Ultimate Seed of Abraham.

And I love the Dan 7 passage because the prophecy was filled when Jesus ascended into heaven. And the King was given a kingdom in which he ruling is right now! (And Peter makes this fact abundantly clear in Acts!) How can it be said that Jesus is right now King, even though he doesn't presently have a kingdom over which he rules? Of course, his kingdom is the Body of Christ![/QUOTE]
Amen to that !!!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, I am quite aware of the corrupted manuscripts that the YLT and other of our modern translations are based upon...the ten or so Alexandrian manuscripts that disagree with each other at a considerably higher level of percentages than anywhere near what is seen in the Textus Receptus, but, hey, that's an argument like Calvinism, which will never see everyone coming to agreement this side of eternity, so it's not worth getting into. The Vaticanus, Aleph, B and C, to name but a few, are just SOME of the horrific manuscripts that serve as the "higher authorities" for the newer translations that corrupt the word of God in unbelievable ways...

Go for it...

MM

“And the gospel must first be published among all nations.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s why you have bibles in many languages and differing versions of English. God wants people to hear it he said it would be spread to all nations people and languages that’s why the Bible is so published and examined and revised in peoples own languages ………

There’s a Bible everywhere lot of them are dusty tho

 

[Scribe]

[QUOTE="Musicmaster, post: 5358293, member: 305060"]
So here are the facts:

New Jerusalem = Bride (Body) of Christ
This "city" comes down from heaven to earth
Jews who had died as believers will occupy this earth, as they are represented by the 12 gates
Gentiles who died as believers will also occupy this earth, as they are represented by 12 foundations.

Therefore, Heaven is a short intermediate "pit stop" where all believers go until the Parousia. After that the eternal dwelling place of all the saints will be the restored and renewed earth, which was always God's intention from the very beginning of creation.

Sort of a "Heaven and New Earth Merging?" Wouldn't you say? A city not made with hands eternal in the heavens is still true of this New Jerusalem that comes down to the New Earth creation. If the promise of "God will dwell with them and be their God and they shall be his people" is finally fulfilled then it is both heaven and the new earth at the same time isn't it?

 

[Clayman]

It's the unbelieving Jews who will convert and confess Messiah and their having crucified Him (Zechariah 10-12). The earthly blessings will realized by them, not myself as I am already in Christ, and therefore no longer a Jew. I will dwell in Heavenly places eternally with all the rest of the body of Christ, comprised of both former Jews and former Gentiles. 2 Corinthians 5:1 makes that very clear to us.

Thanks MM I'm finding your posts fascinating, I cant place you into a category of belief (I know we shouldn't try and pigeon hole people) Its quicker to work out ones beliefs to be able to sometimes is all, so there is a lot about what you say, I don't yet understand.

When you say the unbelieving Jews who will convert and confess Jesus as Messiah, does that mean they become disciples of Christ and agree with Paul and the epistles or do they revert back to the law?

The tribulation saints, who will not be a part of the body of Christ, they will populate the new earth comprising the nations upon the new earth, with the remnant Jews populating the new Jerusalem upon the new earth. Wanted to explain that for the benefit of others lurking in the wings...

I have the tribulation saints as those who refuse the mark and refuse to worship Satan as all being put to death, so I don't actually have tribulation saints entering the 1000yr period, In other words I think peoples romantic notions of surviving the tribulation period as Christians are false, I know the post tribulation rapture folks are probably having kittens right now, but when the Lord returns I don't think there will be believers in Christ to be raptured as they have already chosen death. I see survivors as being unbelievers entering the 1000yr period, sure some will see the truth afterwards and convert, but I see the kingdom on earth much the same as now, most will walk the broad road and only a few the narrow road.

I think we agree the tribulation saints are a different group to those raptured. They are dead for one and not in their resurrected bodies so have a lesser role in the messianic kingdom.

This is the patience of the saints, here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Then I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me "write; 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on'" Rev 14:12-13

They are seen by John in heaven as martyred saints with their own song and all.

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

I see the tribulation saints as those who refuse to bow and worship the antichrist and Satan by taking the mark, the penalty being put to death, so they are a different group in heaven as seen by John yet, there is a point in tribulation that everyone takes the mark and worships the beast, therefore rejecting Christ.

The body of Christ is not the bride of Christ. Remnant Israel and historic Israel who were faithful to the Lord under the Law, they will be the bride of Christ.

Those in old testament times still accepted Christ, when Christ died He went down and preached to the spirits in prison, He gave them the good news, that He died for their sins, then led the captives upward to our heavenly home.

I'm unsure if you have a difference between say Abraham who looked forward to see Christs day and myself who looks backwards to Christs day to the redeeming work accomplished for our salvation, upon accepting Christ we receive life eternal, I see us as one and the same, so you may need to highlight why we are different as in regards to being the bride or the body as I freely admit to seeing us one and the same. Including at the rapture, Abraham will be resurrected, me too if I'm dead and we will then be caught up to the Lord with those who are alive and changed.

It's interesting to me that there are those out there, not you, who have expressed disdain at the idea of dwelling in Heavenly places, but rather want to be on the new earth. I personally can't imagine anyone feeling that way given that all that the Lord has prepared for the different groupings of people in eternity will be so far beyond imagination, that it will be a pleasure to serve in whatever place and capacity He has set forth for us all.

For sure, what a privilege it will be

As stated above, it will be ancient Israelis who were faithful to the Mosaic Law, and the remnant Israelis who remain at the Second Coming and mourn as if for their first born son when they see Him descending to destroy their enemies. 2/3rds of my brethren will be wiped out right before He appears at His Second Coming during the seven years of Jacob's 70th heptad. Half of the entire population of this earth will be wiped out be the end of that tribulation. 1/4th of the earth's population will be wiped out in just the first half of the tribulation, with another 1/3rd in the second half of what remains...which is half of the original number at the beginning of the tribulation.

There is much more I could say about all of us who will dwell in Heavenly places rather than upon the new earth, but most are not prepared for that kind of information, and could not handle it on account of having been raised in this wicked, Westernized Christianity with all its socially engineered theologies that plug the understanding of so many just like a plugged toilet, so I will leave that alone at this time as it would not be value added, per se.

The Lord is praised and glorious. Amen.

MM

I may have a different perspective than you at the moment but am not disagreeing, I enjoy others thoughts and perspectives, and I do change mine often.

You mention different groupings of people, Ill slowly work out what you mean by that.

I simply see faith in God as faith in God so have trouble seeing distinctions pass that.

Do you see the 1000yr period as temporal? do the saints after this time period, share in our resurrection and immortality, and then also become part of the heavenly body with us?

The Lord is praised and glorious. Amen.

Amen

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

What kingdom was Israel under when God cut his covenant with Abraham -- a covenant he made long before Issac was even born?

Are there aren't two different gospels either. Typical Dispen insanity.

That covenant was an eternal covenant, it is still valid.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith

Abraham was saved that way (gen 15)
All under the law were saved that way
and we today are saved that way (romans 4)

 

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="Musicmaster, post: 5358293, member: 305060"]I'm curious, if you don't mind. You believe that you and all other believers will dwell in the New Jerusalem?

I found one verse where there is any mention of a "heavenly kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Where will the body of Christ reside in eterntiy?

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

The body of Christ, therefore, will not dwell in that city on the new earth. Neither the New earth nor the New Jerusalem are in Heaven, but in a new creation like this one, except that it will not be corrupted with sin. We, on the other hand, will be in Heaven with the Lord, as the above verse clearly states, and is supported by these:

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Hebrews 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Replacement theology teaches that we, the Church, replaced Israel, thus receiving all the promises aimed at Israel, which is a doctrine of demons. As an Israeli who is a member of the body of Christ, I find that corrupt belief system offensive and downright wicked, but it is what some believe.

MM[/QUOTE]

You really believe that New Jerusalem is a PLACE? Are you serious? It's not a place, but a PEOPLE! In fact, to be more precise, it's a HOLY people who will dwell in God's temple forever and ever.

Rev 21:1-4
21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
NIV

And,

Rev 21:9-14
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
NIV

So here are the facts:

New Jerusalem = Bride (Body) of Christ
This "city" comes down from heaven to earth
Jews who had died as believers will occupy this earth, as they are represented by the 12 gates
Gentiles who died as believers will also occupy this earth, as they are represented by 12 foundations.

Therefore, Heaven is a short intermediate "pit stop" where all believers go until the Parousia. After that the eternal dwelling place of all the saints will be the restored and renewed earth, which was always God's intention from the very beginning of creation.

 

[Rufus]

That covenant was an eternal covenant, it is still valid.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith

Abraham was saved that way (gen 15)
All under the law were saved that way
and we today are saved that way (romans 4)

You didn't answer the question I asked, but thanks for your non sequitar answer.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Sort of a "Heaven and New Earth Merging?" Wouldn't you say? A city not made with hands eternal in the heavens is still true of this New Jerusalem that comes down to the New Earth creation. If the promise of "God will dwell with them and be their God and they shall be his people" is finally fulfilled then it is both heaven and the new earth at the same time isn't it?

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭

“Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:16‬ ‭

a Jesus ascended into heaven until tbe time of the earths restoration comes

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,

shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭

when he returns from heaven at judgement he’s going to restore creation as it was before sin when God dwelt among man and death didn’t exist

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. ( new Jerusalem meeting the new earth she will rule )

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭

creation is one bit it has two parts like mankind heaven and earth correspond to spirit and flesh

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You didn't answer the question I asked, but thanks for your non sequitar answer.

Sorry you can not understand the basic truth of the gospel. and why I answered the way I did

 

[Rufus]

And yet those who believe it's all one happy little gospel simply refuse to observe the differences throughout. Antagonism will not prove your case. I have provided quotes right from scripture where even Paul referenced the different dispensations. You can discredit Jesus, James, Paul, Peter, et al, but that only shows that you choose to ignore the obvious. That's on you, bud.

MM

There are no differences throughout. There is only one gospel message for Jews and Gentiles. "Different dispensations" don't have anything to do with the gospel. God's elect, from the very beginning, have always been saved by his saving grace which enabled them to repent of their sins and have a true, heartfelt belief in him. What in the world do you think happened in the Garden when Adam sinned. Adam's ultimate sin was that he did not trust God and that distrust led him to eat the fruit.

 

[Rufus]

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭

“Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:16‬ ‭

a Jesus ascended into heaven until tbe time of the earths restoration comes

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,

shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭

when he returns from heaven at judgement he’s going to restore creation as it was before sin when God dwelt among man and death didn’t exist

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. ( new Jerusalem meeting the new earth she will rule )

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭

creation is one bit it has two parts like mankind heaven and earth correspond to spirit and flesh[/QUOTE]

That's well put. The term "heavenly" is a biblical synonym for spiritual. It stands in sharp contrast to all that is unspiritual, e.g. this fallen world. This is why, for example, when Jesus preached to the JEWS the "kingdom of heaven" he told them that his kingdom is not of this [fallen, corrupt] world. At the end of the age, however, when Jesus creates everything anew and the saints are glorified, all will be in harmony once again the way it was in the beginning before the Fall. The physical earth will no longer be under the curse and will be made compatible for habitation by spiritual beings and beings with spiritual-physical bodies. This is why Paul wrote in Rom 8 that all creation groans and waits patiently for the redemption of the saints' bodies (our resurrection) which will signify that God has has perfectly united the physical with the spiritual. After all, it was always God's intention that man be both! In fact, man was created as a spiritual and physical being. That's what makes us unique.

 

[Musicmaster]

Thanks MM I'm finding your posts fascinating, I cant place you into a category of belief (I know we shouldn't try and pigeon hole people) Its quicker to work out ones beliefs to be able to sometimes is all, so there is a lot about what you say, I don't yet understand.

When you say the unbelieving Jews who will convert and confess Jesus as Messiah, does that mean they become disciples of Christ and agree with Paul and the epistles or do they revert back to the law?

Good to speak with you, Clayman.

Zechariah 12:3, 6-12
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. ...
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, [even] in Jerusalem.
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify [themselves] against Judah.
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

The unbelieving Jews will ultimately look up as the Lord returns on the clouds with His armies, and they will see Him whom they had pierced. They are the unbelieving remnant, 2/3rds of which have already been wiped out throughout the tribulation. That Kingdom Gospel is the one of which Jesus spoke in Matthew 24, where they will have to endure unto the end of their lives in order to be saved. They are the ones who can lose their salvation if they fail to endure in that gospel to them. That is the glaring difference between the Gospel of Grace and the Gospel of the Kingdom. We are sealed at the point of faith, they will not be since they will have to endure unto the end. That should be a great motivation for praise of most, if not all, and yet many want to put themselves under the requirement for endurance to THEN be saved at the end, which is one of the items that prompted Paul to say that they have "fallen from grace." We today cannot save our selves by the works of endurance, but most choose to try and walk that path.

I have the tribulation saints as those who refuse the mark and refuse to worship Satan as all being put to death, so I don't actually have tribulation saints entering the 1000yr period, In other words I think peoples romantic notions of surviving the tribulation period as Christians are false, I know the post tribulation rapture folks are probably having kittens right now, but when the Lord returns I don't think there will be believers in Christ to be raptured as they have already chosen death. I see survivors as being unbelievers entering the 1000yr period, sure some will see the truth afterwards and convert, but I see the kingdom on earth much the same as now, most will walk the broad road and only a few the narrow road.

There will be "nations" who enter into the 1000 year Kingdom, and they will be under the rule of Christ and the faithful Israelites who enter that Kingdom. Many will survive to the end of the tribulation, but it will be hard and arduous. I understand your difficulty, because it seems as though no flesh will survive, but the man of sin will not rule completely every soul on the earth. Many will escape his influences to the point that he causes them all to die. Many will die under his rule, but some will survive regardless.

Now, the tribulation saints will not be "Christians" who were filled with Holy Spirit as we are today who are sealed into salvation. They in the tribulation will have to endure by not taking that mark nor worshipping the image of the man of sin. The body of Christ will not be on the earth during the tribulation. The tribulation saints will have to endure because of their rejection of Christ until after the start of the tribulation. That's their lot in life for having put off placing their faith in Christ under the dispensation of grace, as Paul called it.

Those who think they will be here during some, half, most or all the tribulation, that would mean they are not saved before the start of that amazing time. The pre-trib rapture MUST be a reality because it would be unjust to cause one who had been sealed by Holy Spirit unto salvation under grace to then have to do works of endurance to be saved at some future time after their life had ended upon this earth. The Lord is not so unjust, because those people would have to become UNborn again, of which the scriptures make absolutely no mention of nor hint at the possibility for. The body of Christ MUST be taken up from that in order for it to commence.

I think we agree the tribulation saints are a different group to those raptured.

Absolutely, and here's why:

Revelation 7:9-17
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Notice that they are not said to be wearing crowns, as will be the case for the body of Christ. This is one example of the importance behind reading it for what it says, AND for what it does not say...the things that are absent in the portrait painted for our consideration.

To be continued in the next post...

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

This is the patience of the saints, here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Then I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me "write; 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on'" Rev 14:12-13

They are seen by John in heaven as martyred saints with their own song and all.

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

I see the tribulation saints as those who refuse to bow and worship the antichrist and Satan by taking the mark, the penalty being put to death, so they are a different group in heaven as seen by John yet, there is a point in tribulation that everyone takes the mark and worships the beast, therefore rejecting Christ.

Many died at the hands of the man of sin, others died from the cataclysmic events across the earth, and others yet from natural causes. What we do know is that overall, about half the entire earth's population will die throughout the seven years of that horrible time.

Those in old testament times still accepted Christ, when Christ died He went down and preached to the spirits in prison, He gave them the good news, that He died for their sins, then led the captives upward to our heavenly home.

Umm, this one is problematic.

Those captives who were at that time in Sheol, who were led free from Abraham's Bosom, they were the faithful from before the cross; held captive because the shed Blood that was the only blood that would cleanse those who had only the blood covering of animal sacrifices from the past. Nobody was given a second chance to "accept" Christ. That is what we hear from Mormons, which is a false doctrine.

I'm unsure if you have a difference between say Abraham who looked forward to see Christs day and myself who looks backwards to Christs day to the redeeming work accomplished for our salvation, upon accepting Christ we receive life eternal, I see us as one and the same, so you may need to highlight why we are different as in regards to being the bride or the body as I freely admit to seeing us one and the same. Including at the rapture, Abraham will be resurrected, me too if I'm dead and we will then be caught up to the Lord with those who are alive and changed.

Abraham lived God's Law, statutes and commandments, and was a man of faith first and foremost, as is stated:

Genesis 26:4-5
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That was not the Mosaic Law Abraham obeyed, even though there are those who claim that he did, which is an argument from silence. We do not have record of those laws and commandments, other than the instructions the Lord gave to Abraham to relocate, etc. He was accounted righteous on the basis of his faith, not his works, as Paul attested to us in his epistles.

I may have a different perspective than you at the moment but am not disagreeing, I enjoy others thoughts and perspectives, and I do change mine often.

No problem. I appreciate people asking. The antagonists out there are only looking for fights, which is most generally a meaningless endeavor to engage.

You mention different groupings of people, Ill slowly work out what you mean by that.

I simply see faith in God as faith in God so have trouble seeing distinctions pass that.

Do you see the 1000yr period as temporal? do the saints after this time period, share in our resurrection and immortality, and then also become part of the heavenly body with us?

That 1000 years is indeed temporal, although the earthly environment will be restored to a somewhat pristine state, it will not be as perfect as before the fall, for sin will still be a part of that environment, as is evidenced in Revelation 20 and other places that speak of the lamb laying down with the lion, the child placing his hand in the nest of an asp and not being harmed, etc.

It's also the fulfillment of promises made to Abraham and his descendants for a kingdom. It is only then that Israel will finally inhabit ALL the land promised to them that they failed to "clean out" after wandering through the desert for 40 years.

Blessings to you and yours.

MM

 

[Magenta]

Adam's ultimate sin was that he did not trust God and that distrust led him to eat the fruit.

I would say it was idolatry, in that Adam valued something, whether it was his own opinion, or Eve, or what
have you, over God. In essence, he put himself on the throne. It is what natural men do. With. Out. Fail.

You keep messing up the quote tags when you bold something in the quoted persons post, and that causes the whole post to display improperly. Could you please fix this when that happens? You have a five-minute edit window to do so. Simply unbold the parts of the HTML tag that is part of the quote coding so it is all the same. Something else you could do is to insert a space or two after the closing tag before you bold the sentence that abuts that tag. That decreases the chances of messing up the tag when you then bold what follows. Thanks!

 

[Rufus]

I would say it was idolatry, in that Adam valued something, whether it was his own opinion, or Eve, or what
have you, over God. In essence, he put himself on the throne. It is what natural men do. With. Out. Fail.

You keep messing up the quote tags when you bold something in the quoted persons post, and that causes the whole post to display improperly. Could you please fix this when that happens? You have a five-minute edit window to do so. Simply unbold the parts of the HTML tag that is part of the quote coding so it is all the same. Something else you could do is to insert a space or two after the closing tag before you bold the sentence that abuts that tag. That decreases the chances of messing up the tag when you then bold what follows. Thanks!

That's weird because everything looks normal on my end. But I'll try to do what you suggest. Please let me know how it works.