Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Musicmaster]

Why are you so focused on the fruit. It can’t be any plainer. Just read what Jesus said— verse 4- you abide in me; because the branch ( that’s us) CAN NOT bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine! Neither can YOU bear fruit unless YOU abide or STAY in the vine WHO IS CHRIST. If you abide in Christ, verse 5, and He abides in you, ONLY THEN, will he abide in you, and you will be able to produce much fruit. But, the opposite is true also. If you DONT ABIDE IN CHRUST, He WONT ABIDE IN YOU, and you will produce NOTHING. Because. WITHOUT CHRIST YOU CAN DO NOTHING. So, what is it about that verse that you don’t understand??

That makes our salvation dependent on our CHOICE to “KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS (verse 9). Otherwise, Jesus says YOU WILL NOT ABIDE IN THE LOVE OF GOD!!! And He says you must ABIDE IN HIS LOVE. And to prove this He gives the example of Him and God. “JUST AS I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER’S COMMANDMENTS AND ABIDE IN HIS LOVE.
This whole passage from verses 1-10 proves salvation is CONDITIONAL upon our choosing to remain faithful to Christ, keeping His commandments, just like Jesus OBEYED His Father and KEPT HIS COMMANDMENTS. When we do THAT we 1) ABIDE IN JESUS, 2) we ABIDE IN HIS LOVE, 3) we WILL BEAR MUCH FRUIT, and 4) we WILL BE HIS DISCIPLES. (Verse 8)

I have gone verse by verse to show you what each verse says; If you disagree with these verses and what they are saying—because these are not MY WORDS but Jesus’s words—THEN PLEASE GIVE US SCRIPTURE that proves what I have quoted from John 15 is not true. But remember this!! The Bible does NOT contradict itself! Please do not “PIT” one scripture against another. They all agree and support each other. If your theology does not agree with what is written in God’s word, then your theology is wrong—not God’s word.

I don't understand why you've chosen to apply John 15 to yourself and others. Jesus was speaking to Israel, the very nation and people who were under the Kingdom Gospel. They could indeed walk away from their obedience to the commandments, and thus nullify their future salvation at that future time in their lives on the basis of endurance, or the lack thereof.

Your use of those verses written TO another people, in another place, at another time and under a different dispensation, it's nothing but pure chaos. We today are saved by faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus, not in the keeping of commandments, water baptism and all the other works-based items of the Kingdom Gospel. If you disagree with that, then you may as well declare Paul a liar, or a man who was guilty of the sin of omission.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Because the Bible does not teach that people can only repent if they are already saved. Show me the scripture that says that. Peter told the Jews in Acts 2 to repent and they were not saved! They were the ones who crucified Jesus! It does not matter what you think about Simon’s ability to repent, the fact remains that had he NOT repented like Peter said, he would have Perished! ( death and destruction). It doesn’t even make sense that people who are saved and can’t be lost would need to repent —or perish. They can’t be saved and perish at the SAME TIME!

Yes, Simon is in charge of losing his salvation if he doesn’t repent in Acts 8 according to Peter the apostle or maintaining his salvation by Abiding in Christ and keeping His commandments according to John 15. Either way it’s up to the individual. He is the one who has to decide what he is going to do. God did NOT say, you don’t have to abide in me because I will not let you leave and he did not say you don’t have to repent because you are saved anyway and can’t perish. But that is what YOU are saying, and it’s clearly NOT what the Bible is teaching in these passages.

Legalism by any other label is still legalism.

Good luck trying to maintain or add to your salvation by way of works. You're going to need it.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Where is the scripture that teaches predestination. (according to John Calvin’s definition of predestination? )
Where is the scripture that says predestination is the only way salvation can be by grace. This is only according to YOU. You need scriptural proof. John Calvin is not proof that it is true. It’s a man made doctrine and Jesus condemns the doctrines and commandments of men.

Because you have been listening to men instead of studying your Bible, you think ALL WORKS are bad. That is not true. John 6:28-29 says that there are works of God. Faith is a WORK! And so is any other thing that God has commanded us to do.

You are so wrong about the people Paul is writing to in the book of Galations. 1:2 Paul is writing to the CHURCHES in Galatia. To the Christian’s in those churches. In verse 6 He says they are TURNING AWAY from God who called them in the grace of Christ —to a different gospel — a PERVERTED gospel of Christ.. They had been saved in the grace of Christ, but they were TURNING AWAY. His whole letter is trying to bring these people BACK TO CHRIST. These Christians were going Back to the old JEWISH law of Moses instead of remaining in the law of liberty, the law of faith which IS in Christ. He started in chapter 2 saying that a man is not justified by the law of Moses verse 15. He said in verse 4 that FALSE BRETHERN had come into the church trying to get them to give up the liberty that they have in Christ and go back to the old law which was called a law of bondage. Chapter 3:13 he says they had been redeemed by Christ from the curse of the old law. Redeemed means they were saved. Verse 26 he says they are ALL SONS OF GOD, baptized into Christ, put on Christ and they were all one in Christ. Chapter 4 verse 9 he says they KNEW GOD AND WERE KNOWN BY GOD. He called them “BRETHREN.” In verse 12.and verse 28. In verse 21 he says they are “desiring” to be under the old law so in chapter 5 he says to stand fast in the “liberty” by which Christ has made them free. That’s when he says, “You have become ESTRANGED FROM CHRIST (separated from Christ), you who attempt to be justified by (the old) law, YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE.”

YOU said “Paul was speaking to people yet outside of faith.” Not true at all as we have seen in the scriptures. You seem to fail to realize that those Christians HAD TO BE IN GRACE BEFORE THEY COULD FALL FROM IT.

You really should read before the verse and after the verse before you take a verse out of its context.

You really should do more in-depth study into the Greek from which some of our English translations are translated.

"ἀπό τίνος εἰς τί, to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another, Galatians 1:6" [Thayer's Greek Lexicon]

They shifted their adherence from Paul's Gospel to the corruptions of the Judaisers from Jerusalem who were turning them to the Mosaic Law. None of that has anything to do with them having lost their salvation. It was their understanding that was becoming corrupted. Those people were not highly educated, and so more easily swayed by those coming in with credentials from Jerusalem. They were therefore easy targets because they did not yet have elders deeply rooted in the Gospel once delivered to them by Paul; elders who would serve as the men who walked the walls to defend the flock until they were all raised up in spiritual maturity and knowledge.

This habitual practice of INJECTING salvation anywhere and everywhere it suits the preconceived notions of some, that's a level of intellectual dishonesty that concerns me greatly. Please delve more deeply into the Greek and Hebrew before spouting such nonsense.

MM

 

[JJoseph]

I believe the Bible is clear enough on this issue.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV

What part of this Verse do you not understand? I myself am 100 %ly sure that salvation loss is possible.

Agreed. "But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved." (Mat 24:13). May we all strive to the persevere to the end, and may we actually persevere, by the Grace of God, in our faith in Christ. In Jesus' Name. Amen. The gift of perseverance is to be received through prayer.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 5:1-2a

 

[PaulThomson]

Verse 2 says it is the Father who cuts them off and casts them away. It doesn't say people cast themselves away.
It seems despite the fact that they aren't abiding, they are still clinging.

Verse two does not say the Father cuts them off. He takes them away and
urns tbem. Takes them away from where? From the ground onto which they fell when they ceased abiding in the vine; and from the vineyard to a fire. Ceasi g to abide is not still clinging to tbe vine.

 

[Beckworth]

I am a follower of the Bible alone. I believe in predestination because the Bible informs us of that.
Predestination is the only way salvation can be by grace, otherwise, it must be by works. There is no
third alternative.

He is speaking to His disciples in John, which included the apostles. Where in John do you find "apostle"
mentioned anywhere? If it is there, please provide the verse.
In 13:22 He is speaking to His disciples.
Christ laid His life down only for His friends - not for everyone - not everyone was/is His friend.
His disciples were those who were with Him from the beginning.

[Jhn 15:8, 13 KJV]
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

[Jhn 13:22 KJV] 22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.

So eternal life is not eternal life.

Thats good to know.

Gods promise that we will never die is not true

Again, Good to know

Gods promise that we will never hunger or thirst is not true

Again, good to know

Gods promise he WILl raise us on the last day is not true

His promise that we are sealed with the spirit UNTIL the day of redemption is not true

Its good to know All these things and other promised are not true, It would be so sad to have faith in God to keep his promises, only to later find out that non of those things are really true, and we will end up in hell anyway.

1 Thess.. 5:21- “Prove” all things.
NO “PROOF”
NO SCRIPTURE
NOTHING

 

[PaulThomson]

You really should do more in-depth study into the Greek from which some of our English translations are translated.

"ἀπό τίνος εἰς τί, to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another, Galatians 1:6" [Thayer's Greek Lexicon]

They shifted their adherence from Paul's Gospel to the corruptions of the Judaisers from Jerusalem who were turning them to the Mosaic Law. None of that has anything to do with them having lost their salvation. It was their understanding that was becoming corrupted. Those people were not highly educated, and so more easily swayed by those coming in with credentials from Jerusalem. They were therefore easy targets because they did not yet have elders deeply rooted in the Gospel once delivered to them by Paul; elders who would serve as the men who walked the walls to defend the flock until they were all raised up in spiritual maturity and knowledge.

This habitual practice of INJECTING salvation anywhere and everywhere it suits the preconceived notions of some, that's a level of intellectual dishonesty that concerns me greatly. Please delve more deeply into the Greek and Hebrew before spouting such nonsense.

MM

Paul was not against circumcision for Jews as a cultural distinctive. He was agaknst it being used to qualify cor salvation, whether by gentile or by Jew.

17¶But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Titus was circumcised because he was a half-Jew and it allowed him to mix with other Jews. He was not curcumcised to qualify for salvation.

 

[PaulThomson]

I don't understand why you've chosen to apply John 15 to yourself and others. Jesus was speaking to Israel,

Maybe because the vine of national israel was cut off from the Root, which is Christ, and only israelites who put their trust in Chrisf were grafted back into the figtree, along with Gentiles who ali put their trust in Christ.

The church, both Jew and Gentile believers grafted into the root-stock that is Christ, is now the Israel of God.

 

[rogerg]

It is a mistake to take one verse all by itself and not the whole Bible. YOU said and I quote, “ Christ laid down His life ONLY for His friends - not for everyone.” Not true!
—-2 Corinthians 5:15 says that “CHRIST DIED FOR ALL.”
——Roman’s 5:6- “CHRIST DIED FOR THE UNGODLY.”
——Roman’s 5:8- WHILE WE WERE SINNERS, CHRIST DIED FOR US..”
Psalms 119:160 says all of your word is righteousness. The SUM of your word is truth. You have to take EVERYTHING God says and put it all together. Don’t take 1 verse out and ignore all the rest of the Bible.

It is not merely a single verse; it is fundamental to the entire gospel. The "all" refers exclusively to those the Father gives to Jesus; for them alone, He died.

Furthermore, if salvation were dependent on human actions or contribution in any form, they would fall under works. Salvation cannot be attained through our works, including by one's faith.

[Jhn 6:37, 39-40, 44,45 KJV] 3
7 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[Eph 2:8-10 KJV]
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Yes, I know Jesus was speaking to His disciples. What is your point? Does this have something to do with the subject of showing a child of God can be lost? Yes, I referred to them as apostles instead of disciples. Are you saying his disciples were not called apostles? Does that make what I said a lie? I can read about Thomas, Judas, Andrew, Phillip, Peter and John by name in just a few chapters preceding John 15 (haven’t looked through the whole book) and they all became apostles so I dont know how it was wrong to call them that even though they might not have been called that until later—it was the same people. If I misled anyone by doing that , I apologize.

My point is that those of 15:8 & 15:16 were not just His apostles, they were, and are, all of His true disciples - those
throughout time ordained by God to abide in Christ to bring forth much fruit, and to receive salvation. They cannot be "lost"
because they alone are those who Christ died for, otherwise, sin would be stronger and more powerful than Christ.

[Jhn 15:8, 16 KJV]
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. ...
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

[Musicmaster]

Agreed. "But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved." (Mat 24:13). May we all strive to the persevere to the end, and may we actually persevere, by the Grace of God, in our faith in Christ. In Jesus' Name. Amen. The gift of perseverance is to be received through prayer.

So, you plan to be here during the tribulation under the Kingdom Gospel? Well, good luck...you're going to need it.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Paul was not against circumcision for Jews as a cultural distinctive. He was agaknst it being used to qualify cor salvation, whether by gentile or by Jew.

I fully agree.

17¶But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Titus was circumcised because he was a half-Jew and it allowed him to mix with other Jews. He was not curcumcised to qualify for salvation.

Again, I agree. This is a non-argument to me. I don't know why you brought this up, but I do agree with you.

MM

 

[posthuman]

Yes, all of His disciples were Jews but not all of the Jews were His disciples.

what's preventing you from having lost your salvation, right now?

how are you still saved?

what are the chances you will still be saved tomorrow?

got any kind of guarantee whatsoever?

 

[Cameron143]

I think your mistake is in not making a difference between a life of unrepented sin and a sin that you repent of. In Acts 8, Simon the Sorcerer had just believed and was baptized, (saved) when he sinned by thinking he could buy the Holy Spirit. Peter told him”your money PERISH with you. Then Peter told him to REPENT and Pray ( for forgiveness). And he did. He was repentant and did not lose his salvation. But what if he had refused to repent and pray? He WAS responsible for maintaining his salvation. Where does it say we are not responsible for maintaining our salvation. That is exactly what John 15 is saying. You maintain your salvation by ABIDING in Christ. Keeping His commandments. That does not mean we do it without Christ or apart from Christ. But Christ has already done His part. Now it’s up to us to do ours. We have to remain steadfast and faithful. Your illustration of letting our minds wander in services is not a parallel to being unrepentant and living in a life of sin. You don’t become unfaithful to Christ unless you sin and refuse to repent and pray as Peter told Simon to do.

The fact that Simon in Acts 8 was in danger of “PERISHING,” proves that a child of God can sin and Lose his salvation. That’s what “perishing” is. The definition of that word means to “suffer death or destruction.” There is no doubt that Simon was in danger of losing his salvation if he did not repent and pray for forgiveness. The scriptures are consistent in this. One scripture does not teach one thing and another scripture teach the opposite. Instead of keep coming up with other scriptures that you think teach the opposite of what I am saying— you need to show how THIS SCRIPTURE AND JOHN 15 do not teach what I am saying it does. Because if this scripture teaches what I have said, then all other scriptures will support this BECAUSE THE BIBlE DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF! You will not be able to find another scripture in the Bible that teaches the “opposite” of Acts 8 and John 15 and what about 2 Peter 3:17? If Acts 8. And John 15 do NOT teach that a child of God can be lost, then tell us what it DOSE teach using the verses in that scripture to “”prove” it.

Please don’t just give me your opinion (,what you believe) with no scripture to prove it. You know what they say about opinions— they are like bellybuttons—everybody has one! 1 Thess. 5:21 - PROVE all things.

You are literally saying that a person must keep themselves saved?

Will you do the exercise I suggested? It could change your life.

 

[Musicmaster]

Maybe because the vine of national israel was cut off from the Root, which is Christ, and only israelites who put their trust in Chrisf were grafted back into the figtree, along with Gentiles who ali put their trust in Christ.

The church, both Jew and Gentile believers grafted into the root-stock that is Christ, is now the Israel of God.

That does not at all change the audience and target for what Jesus stated. Spiritualizing Israel will never change the fact that national Israel, by way of bloodline, will once again come into play in the future given that the 70th seek of Jacob's trouble is aimed at national Israel, not the Church. All of that is to say that the Lord is not so finished with Israel that He ha cast her aside permanently. Replacement theology, which is strong out there among some evangelicals, is a doctrine from the pits of Hell. The future of the body of Christ is to dwell in Heavenly places, not the new earth nor the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem will be populated ONLY by national Israel as the center for rule over the new earth.

For now, yes. Both Gentiles are grafted into the vine, which is Christ, and the Jews will one day be grafted back into the same vine. Nowhere does it say that the Jewish branches lose their distinctiveness as Jewish branches, just as the Gentile branches don't lose theirs. However, in the economy of Christ, as a whole, those distinctives are not of any matter as the focus is upon Christ above all else, with His being the Source of ALL our salvation, Jews and Gentiles.

Yes, IN Christ we are all of one body, with there being no Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor freeman...but in this world, the distinctions still exist because the Lord's purposes for the future are based upon those distinctions.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

what's preventing you from having lost your salvation, right now?

how are you still saved?

what are the chances you will still be saved tomorrow?

got any kind of guarantee whatsoever?

Isn't it wonderful that we today have the assurance of salvation through faith that is not subject to works, and that there is no power great enough to pluck us from the Lord's Hands?

MM

 

[Cameron143]

Verse two does not say the Father cuts them off. He takes them away and
urns tbem. Takes them away from where? From the ground onto which they fell when they ceased abiding in the vine; and from the vineyard to a fire. Ceasi g to abide is not still clinging to tbe vine.

He is the gardener or husbandman. How does a gardener remove branches from a vine? It certainly isn't talking about fallen branches. Have you ever picked grapes off a vine? You would know dead branches don't fall to the ground. They are intertwined around other branches and much effort goes into their removal. Not only are they cut, but they are pulled away from the other branches.

 

[posthuman]

Isn't it wonderful that we today have the assurance of salvation through faith that is not subject to works, and that there is no power great enough to pluck us from the Lord's Hands?

MM

wait, what??

salvation is real??

 

[Musicmaster]

wait, what??

salvation is real??

Yeah. Ain't it great?

MM

 

[Edify]

People will say "I agree with you", then say something totally off the wall that doesn't agree. The same ones will refuse the plainly written words of Jesus & make their outlandish statements without any plain scripture to back them.
The same will back each other with amazing unity.... no disagreements at all.
Which makes me think... What is their true motivation? It isn't as simple as it looks because they are very careful. Some will go as far as accusing others of being offensive while the accused show attributes of being peaceful.
So my question is, are they sockpuppets, jesuits, or both?