What Changed?

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Chaps

Active member
#641
Apr 3, 2024
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#641
Rufus said:
Well, if the term "world" is always used in the distributive sense then the entire world is saved, since Jn 1:29 says that Christ literally takes away the sin of [each and every person in] the world. Hallelujah! Everyone is saved. We cam preach the gospel of universal salvation! :rolleyes:

And for your info, God also hates sinners. (See my post 603 for numerous cites.)

And for your further info, God's love is also conditional in nature, which makes eminently good sense in light of the above fact.

Lots and lots of contradictions when you interpret scripture wrongly.
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According to Paul, Christ’s atonement is “greater” than the sin of Adam that infected the entire world.

And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ro 5:16–19.
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So, the point here is that Christ is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the “whole world.” This doesn’t mean that the entire world is saved because not all believe. However, the point of the atonement is that Christ’s blood is greater than sin itself. Not just your sins or my sins, but all sin. The power of sin and death itself was conquered by the blood of Christ.

Out of time, I’ll respond to the rest later.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#642
Chaps said:
According to Paul, Christ’s atonement is “greater” than the sin of Adam that infected the entire world.



So, the point here is that Christ is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the “whole world.” This doesn’t mean that the entire world is saved because not all believe. However, the point of the atonement is that Christ’s blood is greater than sin itself. Not just your sins or my sins, but all sin. The power of sin and death itself was conquered by the blood of Christ.

Out of time, I’ll respond to the rest later.
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If Christ paid for every sin ever committed, and unbelief is a sin, then God sends people to hell for sins He accepted payment for, yes?
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#643
Oct 24, 2012
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Rufus said:
you ask, if you do not receive then could it be one’s motive to why one does not receive.
God knows everyone in everyone’s motive. Therefore God decides
it has nothing to do with anyone being better than anyone else> God is not. Unfair< only one righteous which made son and God as one
next. Being. The first one in flesh and blood< to never deny God. That is what belief he is risen starts in us the new life with no selfish motive. at least grow in this grace given us unto maturity. Hebrews 5:12- Chapter 6 we start as babies on milk, then it comes time to start growing up. I need meat, hope you see this too. No one is better than anyone else here. We are here to share in care.
thank you
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As I well know from scripture and my own personal salvation experience. You should have directed your post to EverlastingGrace who made that straw men claim that I must be better than everyone else (or my neighbor God chose to bypass) if God chose to save me and not my neighbor. A totally foolish argument given the fact that God chose to bypass all Egypt when he "came down" to "rescue" Abraham's descendants from the clutches of Pharaoh. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

I agree to disagree with you, God being the only one righteous to me, this I see and deserve to not be saved, no way for me, even if I ever do not ever sin again, I remain deserving to be put to death, since I have sinned at least, the very least, once in my earth life here on earth
Thanks for your honest replies

I take the gift, not the works of man/woman, that by no means gets anyone in. A gift has no work of self in it for them to get or be saved, since I have sinned, even if do not sin presently anymore
It just takes sin one time and then one is not perfect and needs God to call them perfect through risen Son for them , that takes to settle it in self, for me it is thanksgiving and praise God just loves us all, otherwise Son would have not gone through all that pain of the cross, for us all to given new life in his risen Life after that one time death took away sin first, for anyone to choose to beleive and and not try to be god anymore as in Psalm 82 tells me about being god
 
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Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
#644
Dec 18, 2021
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Rufus said:
I have looked at the whole. But since you insist that "world" Jn 3:16 is used in the distributive sense, then to be consistent with your self you would have to say the same about v.17 which means Jesus is saving each and every person in the world. But if not...Then God's plan of salvation is an epic fail. His clearly stated intentions in v. 17 have been thwarted, in spite of scripture teaching differently.

And have you found the OT passage(2) that Nicodemus was ignorant of? :coffee:
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You can’t look at the whole and come to your conclusion
you can’t even discuss the bronze serpent or the typology of the salvation was offered to everyone but only those who trusted god recieved.
You’re stuck on one word. And refuse to look at context to see what Jesus meant.

But hey. Keep trying to run. That’s on you
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#645
Apr 3, 2024
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#645
Rufus said:
And for your info, God also hates sinners. (See my post 603 for numerous cites.)

And for your further info, God's love is also conditional in nature, which makes eminently good sense in light of the above fact.

Lots and lots of contradictions when you interpret scripture wrongly.
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I think context is important in understanding particular statements in the Bible. So my question to you is, “Are you not a sinner?” Or, better yet, “were you a sinner before coming to Christ?” If so, then why did God save you if he hated you?

I think a better way of looking at it is that God’s love is unconditional. It is not based on something we do or some condition we can establish. Rather, God’s grace is conditional. God loves everyone, but his grace is given to those who believe. For, Paul says clearly, “This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Tim. 2:3-4)

God desires ALL people to be saved. His love is unconditional and his desire for the good and salvation of every person is made clear in this verse. The issue is not that God does not love and desire some people to be saved, but that some will not believe the truth. God‘s condition for mercy is that we believe and accept the truth.

In sum, I think the picture you have of God, that he hates most of the world and desires to crush them eternally except for those who has chosen to love by His own capricious predetermination, is not supported by the Bible. Otherwise the above verse and many others would make no sense. This is not the picture the Bible gives. Jesus himself says in John 3:19-21,

And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
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God gives his light to the whole world and invites them ALL to come into the light. The reason people do not is they love darkness. It is not that that they do not come to the light because God hates them and refuses to allow them into the light. Rather He invites them to the light but allows us to have agency to choose if we will humble ourselves and be exposed, or hide ourselves and excuse our evil behaviors.
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#648
Apr 3, 2024
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#648
Everlasting-Grace said:
Only if he did not die for sin if unbelief.
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He did die for the sin of unbelief. For, before I was a believer, I was an unbeliever. My sins in my unbelief are forgiven. So it is not that his blood does not cover the sin of unbelief. However, his blood does not cover unbelievers. If someone does not turn from their unbelief, they will be judged according to the Law. It’s not that Christ’s blood cannot or will not cover them as unbelievers, but they will not believe. I think it is bad theology to suggest that Christ’s blood cannot cover a sin because someone refuses to believe. Again, God grants us agency. His blood can cover ALL our sins. However, he gives us the freedom to decide to come into the light of the truth or not. So its not God’s impotency but his plan to allow us to choose.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Chaps said:
He did die for the sin of unbelief. For, before I was a believer, I was an unbeliever. My sins in my unbelief are forgiven. So it is not that his blood does not cover the sin of unbelief. However, his blood does not cover unbelievers. If someone does not turn from their unbelief, they will be judged according to the Law. It’s not that Christ’s blood cannot or will not cover them as unbelievers, but they will not believe. I think it is bad theology to suggest that Christ’s blood cannot cover a sin because someone refuses to believe. Again, God grants us agency. His blood can cover ALL our sins. However, he gives us the freedom to decide to come into the light of the truth or not. So it’s not God’s impotency but his plan to allow us to choose.
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If he died for the sin of unbelief everyone would be saved and no one would be condemned because if unbelief

You were condemned before you were saved because of your unbelief. The moment you recieved his grace gift. You lost your condemnation.
 
C

Chaps

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Apr 3, 2024
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Everlasting-Grace said:
Oh he did not? Be cause he did not die for the sin of rejecting him?
I thought @Rufus was bad in his excuses but this takes the cake
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Didnt he pray for forgiveness of those who rejected him and were crucifying him? Didnt he pray for Peter prior to Peter rejecting him three times? If a person dies in their unbelief, they will be condemned. But this is very different than saying Christ’s blood cannot cover the sin of unbelief. I dont know why you see this as an “excuse.” I am quoting Scripture in my explanations. You may not agree with my interpretation, but thats an issue of interpretation, not an “excuse.”
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#652
Apr 3, 2024
307
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California
#652
Everlasting-Grace said:
If he died for the sin of unbelief everyone would be saved and no one would be condemned because if unbelief

You were condemned before you were saved because of your unbelief. The moment you recieved his grace gift. You lost your condemnation.
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Right, so we agree God forgave my sin of unbelief. There’s a difference in saying that in order for God to save people from sin of unbelief, he must forgive all unbelievers. He forgives the sin of unbelief, but if someone will not believe, his offer is of forgiveness is not accepted by them. The issue is the lack of repentance of the hearer, and not that God is unwilling to forgive some.
 
C

Chaps

Active member
#653
Apr 3, 2024
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#653
The difference in our positions, as I see it is this:

I believe God wants to save all people. Some are not saved because they will not believe and accept his mercy.

You believe God does not want to save all people. Some are not save because God has chosen not to save them.

I think the Bible supports my position. People are not saved because their unwillingness, not God’s unwillingness
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Chaps said:
Didnt he pray for forgiveness of those who rejected him and were crucifying him? Didnt he pray for Peter prior to Peter rejecting him three times? If a person dies in their unbelief, they will be condemned. But this is very different than saying Christ’s blood cannot cover the sin of unbelief. I dont know why you see this as an “excuse.” I am quoting Scripture in my explanations. You may not agree with my interpretation, but thats an issue of interpretation, not an “excuse.”
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He who believes is not condemned

He who does not believe is CONDEMNED ALREADY

Yes he prayed for their forgiveness. But their only hope was faith in God. To repent. To go from unbelief to belief
Peter denied him three times out of fear.
lets not equal that with Unbelief.. Peter was already alive.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Chaps said:
Right, so we agree God forgave my sin of unbelief.
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No.

He gave you life because of your belief. You were no longer an unbeliever, so he did not need to forgive you

If you were still an unbeliever you would still be dead.

There’s a difference in saying that in order for God to save people from sin of unbelief, he must forgive all unbelievers.
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If he died for unbelief, no one could be condemned for unbelief,, its basic math

He forgives the sin of unbelief, but if someone will not believe, his offer is of forgiveness is not accepted by them. The issue is the lack of repentance of the hearer, and not that God is unwilling to forgive some.
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Unbelief is blasphemy, And we are told when we do nto believe, it is the HS we are blaspheming, he said he would never forgive that sin in this age or the next.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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#658
Chaps said:
The difference in our positions, as I see it is this:

I believe God wants to save all people. Some are not saved because they will not believe and accept his mercy.

You believe God does not want to save all people. Some are not save because God has chosen not to save them.

I think the Bible supports my position. People are not saved because their unwillingness, not God’s unwillingness
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Who are you talking to here? You did not quote anyone, if you’re talking to me, you would be in error. I do not believe the second way
 
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