Total Depravity

[PaulThomson]

Yes.

Some are duped, some accept it wholeheartedly they want it to be true, they hate humanity and themselves, I have met those types as well.

The problem is, it not easy to break free because once you adopt this lens you think you see it in scripture, confirmation bias.
There is a discomfort in living with unknowns and complexity, TULIP has all the answers for a worldview, however, on a personal level it can be very discomforting.

That is often when people break free, when they have to come to terms with the fact that a family member was not one of the
pre-selected.

It is very repulsive how the poorly defined concept of the "sovereignty of God" is used as a cover for this doctrine.
They are out to make converts maybe to replenish those who do break free.

The devil is out to make the gospel as unattractive as possible to unbelievers, and to create disputes and division within the body of Christ; and Calvinism does a good job at those.

 

[Magenta]

1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16 What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

 

[Magenta]

2 Corinthians 4:4

 

[PaulThomson]

Yes.

Some are duped, some accept it wholeheartedly they want it to be true, they hate humanity and themselves, I have met those types as well.

The problem is, it not easy to break free because once you adopt this lens you think you see it in scripture, confirmation bias.
There is a discomfort in living with unknowns and complexity, TULIP has all the answers for a worldview, however, on a personal level it can be very discomforting.

That is often when people break free, when they have to come to terms with the fact that a family member was not one of the
pre-selected.

It is very repulsive how the poorly defined concept of the "sovereignty of God" is used as a cover for this doctrine.
They are out to make converts maybe to replenish those who do break free.

You can see the triggered shortcuts in operation in discussions with Calvinists. You will cite a lengthy text showing that God changed his mind and did not do what He had thought to do. Instead of reasoning through the biblical narrative, the calvinist synapses will be triggered by a single word or phrase in the post and shoot immediately to another text somewhere else in the Bible that s/he supposes argues against the trigger, completely circumventing any analytical study of the text originally put forward for discussion. Calvinist apologists have, like the magician, misdirected the Calvinist's attention away from the scripture of interest and to some other supposed proof-text and/or claim of the Calvinist system, deceiving them into ptesuming there is a rational pathway from the one to the other.

 

[posthuman]

"As if they are" and "as though they are" does not mean "because they are".

God tells Abraham "I have made you"
not "will make you"

the Greek is very specifically past fully completed action.
because He has done it, even though it is for Abraham, in the future. for God it is not.

QED

- time is not greater than God, but God is greater than time.

 

[posthuman]

You seem to be arguing that there is no historical truth to the old testament, but it is all a cotrived allegory to present a hidden prediction of Christ. I think it is historically true and the passages we have were selected for recording because they ALSO predict the ministry of Christ.

The passages say that God was deterred by Moses from doing what He had thought to do. The passages say God changed His mind. I don't need to deny what scripture SAYS in order to trust in Jesus and also see Jesus prefigured in those Old Testament stories.

the scriptures are literally true events and their primary purpose is testimony of Christ.

the events took place in order to testify of Christ and were written to testify of Him.

when we do not search the scriptures looking for Him in them, we miss the point.

 

[homwardbound]

I haven't seen anyone but you using the term "all by yourself" in regards to faith and salvation . I don't knw why you would be under the delusion that anyone thinks any stage of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is "all by yourself".

Sorry to have to say this, yet it sounds like your own self flesh is getting in the way. God loves us all individually, then collectively as One with Father and Son. It takes individual belief between God and the person, then sharing is in place, at least to me as I see you both beleive and each are in different stages of growth to see

 

[homwardbound]

Sorry, @homwardbound, but I don't understand the connection you are trying to make between my post and your comments.

okay, thanks for being honest, God will reveal it our not to you, thank you love you as God loves me first. You as well

 

[notmyown]

the scriptures are literally true events and their primary purpose is testimony of Christ.

the events took place in order to testify of Christ and were written to testify of Him.

when we do not search the scriptures looking for Him in them, we miss the point.

yes, i recall someone saying, the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You will cite a lengthy text showing that God changed his mind and did not do what He had thought to do.

I am not a Calvinist and God did indeed change His mind about certain things. That has no bearing on the fact that He foreknows and foresees everything. It would be a mistake to imagine that God has any limitations, and if that is your philosophy then you do not understand the Scriptures. The same applies to Christ.

 

[posthuman]

I am not a Calvinist and God did indeed change His mind about certain things. That has no bearing on the fact that He foreknows and foresees everything. It would be a mistake to imagine that God has any limitations, and if that is your philosophy then you do not understand the Scriptures. The same applies to Christ.

the instances of God relenting are prophetic testimony of Him accepting the propitiation He made on the cross.

they are not evidence that God is beholden to time. they are in fact evidence that time is beholden to Him.

 

[homwardbound]

Sorry, @homwardbound, but I don't understand the connection you are trying to make between my post and your comments.

God has never relented of being good, ever, angered yes many times and righteously so.
There point is: God is the same today, yesterday and forever, do you think different, from your post, I read you think God changes
God is to this day the one and only one good even as Jesus said that in Matt 19, his Father is the only one good
Does that help. I had to rest on your post and wait to hear

 

[PaulThomson]

God tells Abraham "I have made you"
not "will make you"

the Greek is very specifically past fully completed action.
because He has done it, even though it is for Abraham, in the future. for God it is not.

QED

- time is not greater than God, but God is greater than time.

What does the Greek word tithEmi mean?

 

[PaulThomson]

the scriptures are literally true events and their primary purpose is testimony of Christ.

the events took place in order to testify of Christ and were written to testify of Him.

when we do not search the scriptures looking for Him in them, we miss the point.

So, God did truly change His mind historically in the narrative AND the narrative speaks of Jesus.

 

[PaulThomson]

I am not a Calvinist and God did indeed change His mind about certain things. That has no bearing on the fact that He foreknows and foresees everything. It would be a mistake to imagine that God has any limitations, and if that is your philosophy then you do not understand the Scriptures. The same applies to Christ.

Yes. It would be limiting God to say that He cannot change His mind as circumstances change.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes. It would be limiting God to say that He cannot change His mind as circumstances change.

You got that wrong again. So you have voluntarily put yourself into a humanistic trap. You have also assumed that you really know the mind of God.

 

[PaulThomson]

the instances of God relenting are prophetic testimony of Him accepting the propitiation He made on the cross.

they are not evidence that God is beholden to time. they are in fact evidence that time is beholden to Him.

The instances of God relenting are evidence that God's attitudes and plans can change over time. I have no idea what "God beholden to time" and "time beholden to God" mean,.

 

[Nehemiah6]

the instances of God relenting are prophetic testimony of Him accepting the propitiation He made on the cross.

I am not sure this can be applied here. I would rather take Scripture at face value without trying to "explain" God. Some things remain paradoxical. Yes, God absolutely knows everything, and yes there are times when the Bible says that he changed his mind. The word "repented" is used as a change of mind.

 

[HeIsHere]

With few sinners he gives them the "evanescent grace" where he actually goes down, pulls em up out of the pit, the person rejoices in his salvation but nope, he throws him right back and torches it. It truly is revolting

I did a bit of research on this 'evanescent grace."

I share your disgust, God forbid we leave the Gospel in its simplicity.
Faith/Belief in Christ Jesus is the condition set by God for salvation.

God does not gift saving faith He requires if first upon hearing the Good News of Christ Jesus and THEN He works on the heart, the ears, the eyes, >>>> REGENERATES.

 

[HeIsHere]

The devil is out to make the gospel as unattractive as possible to unbelievers, and to create disputes and division within the body of Christ; and Calvinism does a good job at those.

Agree, it destroys the credibility of scripture as well, because it is all single lines, verses/proof texts out of context, stripped from the larger thesis of the letter.
Unbelievers think that is what scripture teaches.

There is a reason the word "exegete" exists.