Total Depravity

[HeIsHere]

God is ultimate troll in Calvinism. Also I had no idea that the Westminster actually states the Holy Spirit gives rebirth PRIOR to faith? Absolute reverse of the Bible. Why are people in this system?

Yes why do they promote something not established in scripture like .....
God has to prick the ears first,
God has to circumcise the heart first,
God has to allow them to see first,
God has to give them faith first,
God has to regenerate first
People are born without the ability to respond to the Good News because God ordained it that way.

Why are they in this system >>>> because it is a simple and a mechanistic world view, some people need that along with a heavy dose of self-loathing or some other psychological reason projected onto scripture.

 

[posthuman]

Ex.32:7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


Deut 9:6 Understand therefore, that the Lord thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

7 Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the Lord thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the Lord.

8 Also in Horeb ye provoked the Lord to wrath, so that the Lord was angry with you to have destroyed you.

9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the Lord made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

10 And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

12 And the Lord said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.

13 Furthermore the Lord spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

15 So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.

16 And I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the Lord your God, and had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of the way which the Lord had commanded you.

17 And I took the two tables, and cast them out of my two hands, and brake them before your eyes.

18 And I fell down before the Lord, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger.

19 For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure, wherewith the Lord was wroth against you to destroy you. But the Lord hearkened unto me at that time also.

20 And the Lord was very angry with Aaron to have destroyed him: and I prayed for Aaron also the same time.

Psa 106:19
They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molten image.

Psa 106:20
Thus they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox that eateth grass.

Psa 106:21
They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt;

Psa 106:22
Wondrous works in the land of Ham, and terrible things by the Red sea.

Psa 106:23
Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.

what an amazing picture of Christ!!

 

[HeIsHere]

They manipulate people into taking shortcuts and making ungrounded deductions. It occurred to me that this same principle accounts for the way Calvinists became duped into thinking TULIP is true.

Yes.

Some are duped, some accept it wholeheartedly they want it to be true, they hate humanity and themselves, I have met those types as well.

The problem is, it not easy to break free because once you adopt this lens you think you see it in scripture, confirmation bias.
There is a discomfort in living with unknowns and complexity, TULIP has all the answers for a worldview, however, on a personal level it can be very discomforting.

That is often when people break free, when they have to come to terms with the fact that a family member was not one of the
pre-selected.

It is very repulsive how the poorly defined concept of the "sovereignty of God" is used as a cover for this doctrine.
They are out to make converts maybe to replenish those who do break free.

 

[posthuman]

God intended to destroy the Israelites and make of Moses a great nation in their place. He changed His mind. The Ever-existing is God. He can change His mind, if He decides to do so. Who are you, O man, to contradict God, and to tell us that he cannot change His mind, when He gives numerous examples in scripture of Himself doing just that.

when you have a Christless interpretation of the OT, you are not interpretating it according to the purpose it was written and the purpose for which these events took place - therefore you naturally get it absolutely wrong.

Exodus 32 is John 17. it is Christ on the cross making substitutionary atonement, saving those who put their trust in Him from the righteous wrath of God we deserve.

it is not God lacking omniscience. it is prophecy, and is itself fulfillment of prophecy, Deuteronomy 18 saying Messiah will be like Moses.
if you understood this and Geneais 3, when God removed the fig leaves from Adam and his wife and made by His own hand coverings for them, shedding innocent blood for their propitiation, you would expect Exodus 32. it must be exactly what it is, God must be Himself manifested as the Messiah and satisfy His justice with mercy - therefore Moses must stand in the gap.

this is not 'God changing His mind' this is the perfect plan of the omniscient Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, portrayed for us in type and shadow so that those who have, will have more, and those who do not have, even what they have, will be taken away.
it is the holiness and lovingkindness of the infinite God meeting together in righteousness: it is Jesus Christ.

 

[decipher]

this is Hebrew betrothal ceremony language. in the ancient custom, the groom if asked about the secret time of the snatching away of the bride, would defer all questions to his father, saying, only he knows - because it is the father of the groom who sets the time.

it doesn't mean the groom doesn't know. it means you should not be asking the groom, in fact, you should not be asking at all, but waiting for your invitation from the father to the wedding feast.

Matt 24: 37 But as in the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
This verse follows Matt 24: 36 which states that only the Father knows the day and time. The analogy that is brought up is with the days of Noah concerning the people being oblivious to the upcoming event.
You Sir, have introduced literature concerning an ancient custom that has nothing to do with what verse 36 and 37 of Matt 24 says. Just an observation, tactics like this serve one of two purposes: to display extraneous knowledge for show or to confuse what the Bible is actually saying. I hope that you believe that my purpose is not to offend, but to correct. We are all subject to criticism, but the best type is positive. All this is my observation and I apologize for any offense taken.

 

[Magenta]

Yes why do they promote something not established in scripture like .....
God has to prick the ears first,
God has to circumcise the heart first,
God has to allow them to see first,
God has to give them faith first,
God has to regenerate first
People are born without the ability to respond to the Good News because God ordained it that way.

Why are they in this system >>>> because it is a simple and a mechanistic world view, some people need that along with a heavy dose of self-loathing or some other psychological reason projected onto scripture.

The natural man being a slave to sin captive to the devil's will is not a projection onto Scripture.

It is what Scripture actually teaches.

Jesus opening the eyes and ears of the blind and deaf is not a projection onto Scripture.

It is what Scripture actually teaches.

God circumcising the heart so man may love Him is not a projection onto Scripture.

It is what Scripture actually teaches.

Faith being one of all the many gifts God gives is not a projection onto Scripture.

It is what Scripture actually teaches.

Why do you deny what Scripture actually teaches? It seems you need to believe you required no help from God. How odd.

Depravity vs. Grace
And when you confess Christ as the Son of the Living God, did you also come to that all by yourself, also?

 

[Magenta]

2 Corinthians 4:4

 

[Hakawaka]

Yes.

Some are duped, some accept it wholeheartedly they want it to be true, they hate humanity and themselves, I have met those types as well.

The problem is, it not easy to break free because once you adopt this lens you think you see it in scripture, confirmation bias.
There is a discomfort in living with unknowns and complexity, TULIP has all the answers for a worldview, however, on a personal level it can be very discomforting.

That is often when people break free, when they have to come to terms with the fact that a family member was not one of the
pre-selected.

It is very repulsive how the poorly defined concept of the "sovereignty of God" is used as a cover for this doctrine.
They are out to make converts maybe to replenish those who do break free.

I saw a debate between Michael Brown and James White, in the cross examination it became evident that the pentecostal who believed he could lose his salvation (Michael Brown) actually had more assurance of salvation than James White. Why is that? Because Michael Brown knows as long as he continues to live a life of faith, he will be saved, hes on his way. Whereas with James White, he has to account for the very nasty doctrine of evanescent grace, in which God gives a "fake grace" to someone and they believe to be saved, while they really arent, only to find out in the end........ I wasnt one of the chosen ones.

You wanna talk about painting a nasty picture of God? It doesnt get uglier than this, the more I listen, read and think about it, it becomes just so disgusting. You have a god who throws a rope to a sinner in the pit, commands him to pick it up or hes gonna throw acid on them as well. He keeps demanding and asking for you to grab the rope, the only problem is, he only put it half way and cursed you with total depravity. You cant grab it(maybe dont even want to?), the gospel is not REALLY for you.

With few sinners he gives them the "evanescent grace" where he actually goes down, pulls em up out of the pit, the person rejoices in his salvation but nope, he throws him right back and torches it. It truly is revolting

 

[Magenta]

1 Corinthians 2:12; Colossians 2:13

 

[Magenta]

You wanna talk about painting a nasty picture of God? It doesnt get uglier than this, the more I listen, read and think about it, it becomes just so disgusting. You have a god who throws a rope to a sinner in the pit, commands him to pick it up or hes gonna throw acid on them as well. He keeps demanding and asking for you to grab the rope, the only problem is, he only put it half way and cursed you with total depravity. You cant grab it(maybe dont even want to?), the gospel is not REALLY for you.

Jesus’ words in John 6:65

 

[Hakawaka]

Jesus’ words in John 6:65

These would be the ones who 'heard' from the Father. The obedient remnant of Israel and the God fearing gentiles such as Cornelius.

 

[Magenta]

These would be the ones who 'heard' from the Father. The obedient remnant of Israel and the God fearing gentiles such as Cornelius.

Have you heard from the Father?

John 5:24-25

 

[homwardbound]

Ex.32:7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


Deut 9:6 Understand therefore, that the Lord thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

7 Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the Lord thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the Lord.

8 Also in Horeb ye provoked the Lord to wrath, so that the Lord was angry with you to have destroyed you.

9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the Lord made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

10 And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

12 And the Lord said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.

13 Furthermore the Lord spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

15 So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.

16 And I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the Lord your God, and had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of the way which the Lord had commanded you.

17 And I took the two tables, and cast them out of my two hands, and brake them before your eyes.

18 And I fell down before the Lord, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger.

19 For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure, wherewith the Lord was wroth against you to destroy you. But the Lord hearkened unto me at that time also.

20 And the Lord was very angry with Aaron to have destroyed him: and I prayed for Aaron also the same time.

Psa 106:19
They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molten image.

Psa 106:20
Thus they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox that eateth grass.

Psa 106:21
They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt;

Psa 106:22
Wondrous works in the land of Ham, and terrible things by the Red sea.

Psa 106:23
Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.

God intended to destroy the Israelites and make of Moses a great nation in their place. He changed His mind. The Ever-existing is God. He can change His mind, if He decides to do so. Who are you, O man, to contradict God, and to tell us that he cannot change His mind, when He gives numerous examples in scripture of Himself doing just that.

You should not be formulating a set of propositions about what kind of God you would find worthy of worship, and then spend so much time and energy trying to convince people that scripture cannot not mean what it says, because if it did, it would present a God who does not conform to the model of Deity you have formulated for yourself, or someone else formulated for you.

Psalm 55:19
God, who is enthroned from of old, who does not change— he will hear them and humble them, because they have no fear of God.
Hebrews 7:21
but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’”
God has to this day remained the same. It is mankind that changes in man's interpretations and messes things up to this day
2 Corinthians 1:12
Paul’s Change of Plans
Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, with integrity and godly sincerity. We have done so, relying not on worldly wisdom but on God’s grace.
2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

1. Hebrews 5:5
   In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Hebrews 13:8
   Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

 

[posthuman]

Matt 24: 37 But as in the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
This verse follows Matt 24: 36 which states that only the Father knows the day and time. The analogy that is brought up is with the days of Noah concerning the people being oblivious to the upcoming event.
You Sir, have introduced literature concerning an ancient custom that has nothing to do with what verse 36 and 37 of Matt 24 says. Just an observation, tactics like this serve one of two purposes: to display extraneous knowledge for show or to confuse what the Bible is actually saying. I hope that you believe that my purpose is not to offend, but to correct. We are all subject to criticism, but the best type is positive. All this is my observation and I apologize for any offense taken.

there are Hebrew wedding ceremony references all over the NT.

no need to presume that Matthew 24 contradicts John 16.

 

[posthuman]

Matt 24: 37 But as in the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
This verse follows Matt 24: 36

God was not ignorant of the day and hour of the flood, nor is He ignorant of the day and the hour of the fire.

He shut the door to the ark Himself, and told Noah the time, a seven beforehand.

Christ is God, the very same. Noah is a typological symbol of Him, and the ark is also, and the coming of the waters of the coming of the Son of Man. if it is like the days of Noah, and He knew the day and hour then, how can He not know the time of His own appearing?

the fig tree is made by Him, for Him and through Him. if its leaves tell you the season, how can its own Maker be unaware of what it does and signifies?

 

[posthuman]

Matt 24: 37 But as in the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
This verse follows Matt 24: 36 which states that only the Father knows the day and time. The analogy that is brought up is with the days of Noah concerning the people being oblivious to the upcoming event.
You Sir, have introduced literature concerning an ancient custom that has nothing to do with what verse 36 and 37 of Matt 24 says. Just an observation, tactics like this serve one of two purposes: to display extraneous knowledge for show or to confuse what the Bible is actually saying. I hope that you believe that my purpose is not to offend, but to correct. We are all subject to criticism, but the best type is positive. All this is my observation and I apologize for any offense taken.

By saying, not the angels, He stopped their mouths, that they should not seek to learn what these angels know not; and by saying, neither the Son, forbids them not only to learn, but even to inquire. For in proof that therefore He said this, see after His resurrection, when He saw they had become over curious, how He stopped their mouths more decidedly. For now indeed He has mentioned infallible signs, many and endless; but then He says merely, It is not for you to know times or seasons. And then that they might not say, we are driven to perplexity, we are utterly scorned, we are not held worthy so much as of this, He says, which the Father has put in His own power. And this, because He was exceedingly careful to honor them, and to conceal nothing from them. Therefore He refers it to His Father, both to make the thing awful, and to exclude that of which He had spoken from their inquiry. ​

​

Since if it be not this, but He is ignorant of it, when will He know it? Will it be together with us? But who would say this? And the Father He knows clearly, even as clearly as He knows the Son; and of the day is He ignorant? Moreover, the Spirit indeed searches even the deep things of God, 1 Corinthians 2:10 and does not He know so much as the time of the judgment? But how He ought to judge He knows, and of the secrets of each He has a full perception; and what is far more common than that, of this could He be ignorant? And how, if all things were made by Him, and without Him was not even one thing made, was He ignorant of the day? For He who made the worlds, it is quite plain that He made the times also; and if the times, even that day. How then is He ignorant of that which He made? ​

​

And ye indeed say that you know even His substance, but that the Son not even the day, the Son, who is always in the bosom of the Father; and yet His substance is much greater than the days, even infinitely greater. How then, while assigning to yourselves the greater things, do you not allow even the less to the Son, in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Colossians 2:3 ​

But neither do you know what God is in His substance, though ten thousand times ye talk thus madly, neither is the Son ignorant of the day, but is even in full certainty thereof. ​

​

For this cause, I say, when He had told all things, both the times and the seasons, and had brought it to the very doors (for it is near, He says, even at the doors), He was silent as to the day. For if you seek after the day and hour, you shall not hear them of me, says He; but if of times and preludes, without hiding anything, I will tell you all exactly. For that indeed I am not ignorant of it, I have shown by many things; having mentioned intervals, and all the things that are to occur, and how short from this present time until the day itself (for this did the parable of the fig tree indicate), and I lead you to the very vestibule; and if I do not open unto you the doors, this also I do for your good.​

​

- John Chrysostom, 407 AD​

 

[PaulThomson]

And when you confess Christ as the Son of the Living God, did you also come to that all by yourself, also?

I haven't seen anyone but you using the term "all by yourself" in regards to faith and salvation . I don't knw why you would be under the delusion that anyone thinks any stage of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is "all by yourself".

 

[Magenta]

I haven't seen anyone but you using the term "all by yourself" in regards to faith and salvation . I don't knw why you would be under the delusion that anyone thinks any stage of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is "all by yourself".

You cannot say you have seen it all, right? So projecting your delusions onto me does not work.

 

[PaulThomson]

Psalm 55:19
God, who is enthroned from of old, who does not change— he will hear them and humble them, because they have no fear of God.
Hebrews 7:21
but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’”
God has to this day remained the same. It is mankind that changes in man's interpretations and messes things up to this day
2 Corinthians 1:12
Paul’s Change of Plans
Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, with integrity and godly sincerity. We have done so, relying not on worldly wisdom but on God’s grace.
2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

1. Hebrews 5:5
   In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Hebrews 13:8
   Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Sorry, @homwardbound, but I don't understand the connection you are trying to make between my post and your comments.

 

[PaulThomson]

when you have a Christless interpretation of the OT, you are not interpretating it according to the purpose it was written and the purpose for which these events took place - therefore you naturally get it absolutely wrong.

Exodus 32 is John 17. it is Christ on the cross making substitutionary atonement, saving those who put their trust in Him from the righteous wrath of God we deserve.

it is not God lacking omniscience. it is prophecy, and is itself fulfillment of prophecy, Deuteronomy 18 saying Messiah will be like Moses.
if you understood this and Geneais 3, when God removed the fig leaves from Adam and his wife and made by His own hand coverings for them, shedding innocent blood for their propitiation, you would expect Exodus 32. it must be exactly what it is, God must be Himself manifested as the Messiah and satisfy His justice with mercy - therefore Moses must stand in the gap.

this is not 'God changing His mind' this is the perfect plan of the omniscient Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, portrayed for us in type and shadow so that those who have, will have more, and those who do not have, even what they have, will be taken away.
it is the holiness and lovingkindness of the infinite God meeting together in righteousness: it is Jesus Christ.

You seem to be arguing that there is no historical truth to the old testament, but it is all a cotrived allegory to present a hidden prediction of Christ. I think it is historically true and the passages we have were selected for recording because they ALSO predict the ministry of Christ.

The passages say that God was deterred by Moses from doing what He had thought to do. The passages say God changed His mind. I don't need to deny what scripture SAYS in order to trust in Jesus and also see Jesus prefigured in those Old Testament stories.