How non believers may view Christian's.

[Nufan]

Oooooh... It's almost like you intentionally provided a demonstration of what I was saying.

"See? See those lazy people who don't do gyms and biking and crossfit the right way? THAT'S why I don't exercise. What good does it do?"

No, that doesn't mean exercise is inherently detrimental, or even useless. It just means you pointed out some people who are doing it wrong.

Now, can you clean off your glasses and see the people who are doing it right? Can you see the ones who are doing most of it right (and benefiting from it) but doing one or two parts wrong? Can you learn from what they are doing right, and avoid their mistakes?

And what standard are we using to determine if they're doing it right or wrong. And who says that the establishment should be compared to a gym? Who says that this is actually a healthy activity? Explain to me how it's a healthy activity, and explain to me why I would need the establishment and the organization to come together with other believers to share Christ, to pray for one another, and to help 1 another. Show me how I need this church to be loving and to be a follower of jesus christ.

 

[Nufan]

There is also the often mentioned point that if your church was perfect, you would not be allowed in the door. Your presence would make it imperfect.

No, this is not true. You don't need to be perfect to enter into a perfect church. The church just needs to be loving. That's the standard that it should go by. Is it loving? Is it loving towards its enemies? What I'm saying is that there's a lot of hate and bigotry and judgment in the church today and church is teaching others to do the same thing. All I have to do is come to this website and I can see all kinds of examples. They are not teaching people to be loving. They are teaching them to be bigoted and hateful and judgmental and argumentative.

 

[Nufan]

Fair enough. I ask the following questions because I genuinely don't know the answer and would like your take on it.

I hear a lot of people say the body of Christ needs unity, but what would that look like as you imagine it? What would need to happen for unity to become a reality? Would all denominations disappear overnight? Would every group that says it believes in Jesus be united under one banner? Will people eventually come to a consensus about the truth of God's word? What would your version of unity look like? I'm all for unity, I just see it as an impossibility unless something really major happens to wake people out of their dream world. Then most of the things they see as important now won't seem quite as important anymore.

What I would like to see is that people in the church are taking the teachings of Jesus Christ serious, and that they have a true passion to want to become his disciple and follow him. What I would also like to see is that the church promotes love and not bigotry. I would like to see that they love their enemies and that they desire to become unified and one with them. I want to see that the church is promoting a loving atmosphere where one would willingly and gladly lay down their life for a friend. And I would like to see a church that prays and desires that others would become better examples of god's power and love than themselves.

 

[Lynx]

I agree that all men know that you are my disciple.If you love one another but really that's the problem.As I don't believe that the churches are loving , they are bigoted. Also what Make you think that just because its a church that they have their lamp.I would argue the fact that most of the churches and the world today have lost their lampstand. I'm simply pointing out how I would discern if it's a church with a lampstand. Is the church truly loving or is it an act? My experience has been that usually churches are more focused on increasing the numbers. They want butts in the seat and money in the plate, and they'll do whatever they have to make that happen.Because it's a business. You will actually find that when it comes to the pastor his success usually is determined by the amount of people in his congregation that attend on a regular basis and that The Other pastors that have the Higher numbers will look Down on The Other pastors that have the lower numbers and they will become judgmental towards them. Also, when you're dealing with higher upd, you're dealing with an organization that supports and funds the church, and the congregation. Then you have to play by their rules and do what they want. And that's where things start to get messy too. The pastor can't teach what he wants to teach, he can't really share the truth the way that he knows that he should share the truth, because he's being censored and monitored because they're more concerned about making money then actually teaching people how to follow christ and be a true disciple of Jesus. Why because being a disciple of Jesus Christ and truly following him is not popular.They've tested it, they know it doesn't work. Also, there's a fear that if one becomes a strong follower of Jesus Christ, that they would no longer need the institution. They gotta keep you in a state of longing for more. They gotta keep you in a state of searching for more. They gotta keep you in a state of lack so you're invested and dependent on the church and what they offer you. I don't know when a church building and a pastor and an institution and a business model became the church or the bride of Christ, because the bibles very clear that when 2 or more gathered in my name, I am there amongst them. The church is the believers coming together and sharing praying and helping one another. Not going to an establishment, and donating your money for a service, a sermon, and a music performance. It's become more like a social gathering or a club than anything else, and it seems like church members keep this jesus private and only share it amongst other club members. Again, I'm not saying that all are like that. But the bar is so low now to become a Christian, anyone can become a follower of Christ now. Really that's complete nonsense. To say that all I have to do is say a prayer and come to the altar. And I'll be saved is complete nonsense. We are told in scripture that the path is narrow.
So how can you tell me that all I have to do is say a little prayer and come to the altar and I'll be saved. That's not a narrow path.

Yeah I hate those gyms. You always see fat people at gyms. If those gyms worked, they would all be in shape.

And there's always muscle guys showing off how much they can lift. I don't want people bragging about how much better they are at working out when I go work out.

Plus there's this friend of mine who did an exercise machine wrong, and he pulled a muscle and hurt himself. Yeah, gyms are no good.

Of course there are different kinds of gyms... Some of them are real strict about how you work out and how much time you spend exercising.

Then there are the Planet Fitness gyms on the other end... Shoot, they'll let anybody in, and don't have any requirements at all for staying there. As long as you pay them money, you're a member in good standing.


All these arguments have been used to claim churches are worthless and detrimental and should be done away with. See how ludicrous they are when you point them at just anything else?

 

[Lynx]

No, this is not true. You don't need to be perfect to enter into a perfect church. The church just needs to be loving. That's the standard that it should go by. Is it loving? Is it loving towards its enemies? What I'm saying is that there's a lot of hate and bigotry and judgment in the church today and church is teaching others to do the same thing. All I have to do is come to this website and I can see all kinds of examples. They are not teaching people to be loving. They are teaching them to be bigoted and hateful and judgmental and argumentative.

So you can point to bad examples. That means there are no good examples at all?

Prove your claim that there are no good churches, or apologize. Because I know my church is a good one, and you owe us an apology.

 

[RodB651]

That's the standard that it should go by. Is it loving? Is it loving towards its enemies? What I'm saying is that there's a lot of hate and bigotry and judgment in the church today and church is teaching others to do the same thing.

They are not teaching people to be loving. They are teaching them to be bigoted and hateful and judgmental and argumentative.

Ok... I know better, but I'll take the bait.
Explain what you're talking about.

 

[Nufan]

So you can point to bad examples. That means there are no good examples at all?

Prove your claim that there are no good churches, or apologize. Because I know my church is a good one, and you owe us an apology.

Of course , I would apologize if Your church is one of the good ones and I'm claiming that all churches are bad.I'm not claiming that all churches are bad.What i'm claiming is that the establishment is bad and a business model is bad. If your church is one of the independent churches, that's not funded by an organization and they're able to actually teach people the truth and instruct them on how to be a follower of Christ and this becomes a practice in their day to day life then I would consider them to be a good church, especially if the foundation is love and not attendance.

 

[Nufan]

Ok... I know better, but I'll take the bait.
Explain what you're talking about.

When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Leviticus 19: 33 – 34 [ESV]

But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Luke 10: 29 [ESV]

Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Colossians 3: 11 [ESV]

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3: 28 [ESV]

How can a church and it's followers, be bigots?And yet follow these scriptures.
It is not me who needs to prove myself to the church.It is the church that needs to prove its self to me.
So from here on I'm just gonna sit back and read the comments. And you guys go ahead and continue to prove me right, that there is judgment, bigotry hatred, division, gossip, and hypocrisy rampant in the church. That these things are being taught to its members. Why? Because it's a business.It's an organization.It's about numbers and profits The?
Business model has nothing to do with following Christ. It has everything to do with taking your money and convincing you that you need them.

 

[Lynx]

Of course , I would apologize if Your church is one of the good ones and I'm claiming that all churches are bad.I'm not claiming that all churches are bad.What i'm claiming is that the establishment is bad and a business model is bad. If your church is one of the independent churches, that's not funded by an organization and they're able to actually teach people the truth and instruct them on how to be a follower of Christ and this becomes a practice in their day to day life then I would consider them to be a good church, especially if the foundation is love and not attendance.

At 0640 CST you posted that all churches are bad. That was not a qualified statement. You didn't add anything about some churches not being bad. You stated plainly that all churches are bad.

Now... What, only churches that are part of a church organization are bad? Like Baptist or Catholic or Presbyterian or something?

 

[Cameron143]

When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Leviticus 19: 33 – 34 [ESV]

But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Luke 10: 29 [ESV]

Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Colossians 3: 11 [ESV]

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3: 28 [ESV]

How can a church and it's followers, be bigots?And yet follow these scriptures.
It is not me who needs to prove myself to the church.It is the church that needs to prove its self to me.
So from here on I'm just gonna sit back and read the comments. And you guys go ahead and continue to prove me right, that there is judgment, bigotry hatred, division, gossip, and hypocrisy rampant in the church. That these things are being taught to its members. Why? Because it's a business.It's an organization.It's about numbers and profits The?
Business model has enough to do with following Christ. It has everything to do with taking your money and convincing you that you need them.

Were you in a church that treated you this way?

 

[Lynx]

Well shoot. He bailed out before he gave us the important information.

Were you in a church that treated you this way?

I was thinking that too, but I was going to wait a couple more beats before mentioning it.

My three current best guesses are...

One, he got kicked out of a church.

Two, he tried to get a church to pay his electric bill and they refused.

Three, a girl broke up with him and used spiritual bad influence as an excuse.

These are all just guesses though. And now that he is refusing to say any more in this thread, we may never know.

 

[Nufan]

At 0640 CST you posted that all churches are bad. That was not a qualified statement. You didn't add anything about some churches not being bad. You stated plainly that all churches are bad.

Now... What, only churches that are part of a church organization are bad? Like Baptist or Catholic or Presbyterian or something?

Are Baptist Catholic and presbyterian all unified? Im talking about an organization that gets in the way because they offer the funding and the support that the pastor in the church needs because maybe they don't bring in enough money. And they gotta pay bills, while they need these higher-ups or this organization to oversee them, and if they aren't doing what they want them to do, then they're not going to get the funding and most likely your going to end up with a different pastor. Usually the pastor or you could say the church pays their ties to the organization to ensure that whenever they're in need that the funding is there and available. I believe they usually have to donate like twenty percent of their earnings. You see, that's the Problem. That's what I mean by church. If you're an independent church that doesn't seek support through an organization. Then good.
On them, you know, I'm all for that.I don't believe that you need a church building.I don't believe that you need a sermon.I don't believe that you need music and all that stuff to be considered as a church.The church is the body of believers coming together.That is the church.The temple is the body.It is not the building. So if you're a church does not fall into this category, then I'm not talking about that church.All right.I'm talking about the churches that need an organization to fund them and oversee them. Cause this organization is not interested and how many followers of Jesus Christ they crank out every year.They're interested in how much money they make from the church every year. And so therefore, they're going to want to oversee and monitor what the pastor is doing and what he's teaching. Because they know what makes money they know what grows a congregation. And if the pastor is not able to effectively do that under their guidance, then they're not going to be a pastor for very long. So therefore it would be wise to seek out a church that doesn't pay tiths

 

[Lynx]

Are Baptist Catholic and presbyterian all unified? Im talking about an organization that gets in the way because they offer the funding and the support that the pastor in the church needs because maybe they don't bring in enough money. And they gotta pay bills, while they need these higher-ups or this organization to oversee them, and if they aren't doing what they want them to do, then they're not going to get the funding and most likely your going to end up with a different pastor. Usually the pastor or you could say the church pays their ties to the organization to ensure that whenever they're in need that the funding is there and available. I believe they usually have to donate like twenty percent of their earnings. You see, that's the Problem. That's what I mean by church. If you're an independent church that doesn't seek support through an organization. Then good.
On them, you know, I'm all for that.I don't believe that you need a church building.I don't believe that you need a sermon.I don't believe that you need music and all that stuff to be considered as a church.The church is the body of believers coming together.That is the church.The temple is the body.It is not the building. So if you're a church does not fall into this category, then I'm not talking about that church.All right.I'm talking about the churches that need an organization to fund them and oversee them. Cause this organization is not interested and how many followers of Jesus Christ they crank out every year.They're interested in how much money they make from the church every year. And so therefore, they're going to want to oversee and monitor what the pastor is doing and what he's teaching. Because they know what makes money they know what grows a congregation. And if the pastor is not able to effectively do that under their guidance, then they're not going to be a pastor for very long. So therefore it would be wise to seek out a church that doesn't pay tiths

Ah, now we're getting down to it. Tithes is the issue.

We pay tithe at my church, but the pastor doesn't belabor the point. I have heard of churches who send you a bill every week or month for your tithes. I don't think I would go to that church.

Different people have their different favorite verses about whether we should or should not pay 10% to the church. I generally ignore them.

Personally I pay my share because my church does good things for people and I want them to continue doing it. Gas for the church bus, electricity for the lights and air conditioning, somebody has to pay all that. I want my church to do good things for many people, and it does, so I contribute my share in this effort.

Maybe you need to find a better church.

 

[Nufan]

Ah, now we're getting down to it. Tithes is the issue.

We pay tithe at my church, but the pastor doesn't belabor the point. I have heard of churches who send you a bill every week or month for your tithes. I don't think I would go to that church.

Different people have their different favorite verses about whether we should or should not pay 10% to the church. I generally ignore them.

Personally I pay my share because my church does good things for people and I want them to continue doing it. Gas for the church bus, electricity for the lights and air conditioning, somebody has to pay all that. I want my church to do good things for many people, and it does, so I contribute my share in this effort.

Maybe you need to find a better church.

No, you misunderstand me.I'm not talking about the congregation not paying tiths. I believe it's good for the congregation to pay tiths. What I'm talking about is the pastor. Does he pay tiths? You want to find a church where the pastor doesn't have to pay tiths to an organization that oversees him and funds him. Look up on google non tithing churches, organizations, and denominations. Also, these are questions you should be asking your pastor concerning the church.Who do they pay ties to, who funds them, who oversees them? They should have on their website who they're affiliated with.

 

[RodB651]

How can a church and it's followers, be bigots?And yet follow these scriptures.
It is not me who needs to prove myself to the church.It is the church that needs to prove its self to me.

Well I read the verses you quoted but I gotta ask, what exactly is the problem you have?

Yeah, the verses are there but what exactly is the church doing wrong?

 

[Nufan]

Ah, now we're getting down to it. Tithes is the issue.

We pay tithe at my church, but the pastor doesn't belabor the point. I have heard of churches who send you a bill every week or month for your tithes. I don't think I would go to that church.

Different people have their different favorite verses about whether we should or should not pay 10% to the church. I generally ignore them.

Personally I pay my share because my church does good things for people and I want them to continue doing it. Gas for the church bus, electricity for the lights and air conditioning, somebody has to pay all that. I want my church to do good things for many people, and it does, so I contribute my share in this effort.

Maybe you need to find a better church.

Also, just because you're doing good things for people doesn't mean that they are a good organization when it comes to being a disciple and follower jesus christ. If that were the case then join the freemasons, join the shriners. They do tons of great things for people. Most of your children's hospitals are funded by them. As well as funding for: food, clothing and family services; medical, dental and prescription services; counseling, psychological services and autism therapy; school supplies, tutoring and career counseling; case management and referral services for children, families and agencies.

 

[Nufan]

Well I read the verses you quoted but I gotta ask, what exactly is the problem you have?

Yeah, the verses are there but what exactly is the church doing wrong?

Well, you asked me what's wrong with Baptist and pentecostal supporting one another. Or Catholic or greek orthodox supporting one another. Or a presbyterian and a united method supporting one another. If there is division and hatred and bigotry towards these groups within these organizations then are they actually following after Christ.

 

[RodB651]

Well, you asked me what's wrong with Baptist and pentecostal supporting one another. Or Catholic or greek orthodox supporting one another. Or a presbyterian and a united method supporting one another. If there is division and hatred and bigotry towards these groups within these organizations then are they actually following after Christ.

I know of a Baptist and Methodist churches that do work together to feed people.
I also know of a group of Baptist, Methodist, Apostolic, and a Church of Christ that work together to care for the homeless in this area. That's a very wide range of belief systems there.

If there is division and hatred and bigotry towards these groups within these organizations then are they actually following after Christ

I want to make sure I'm understanding you here. Are you saying that you gotta be bigoted to follow Christ?

 

[Nufan]

Well, you asked me what's wrong with Baptist and pentecostal supporting one another. Or Catholic or greek orthodox supporting one another. Or a presbyterian and a united method supporting one another. If there is division and hatred and bigotry towards these groups within these organizations then are they actually following after Christ.

And tell me which one should I follow which 1 makes me a Christian? Which one provides me with salvation? Which one actually has the true teachings of how to follow Jesus Christ and be his disciple? Tell me which one because every 1 of them is gonna point to themselves and caution you towards everyone else. We are the ones that have the true message, we are the true church, we are the true followers of Jesus Christ. They all say the same thing. Someone as a non-believer coming into this mess. How could they not be skeptical? How could they not be skeptical with the division and the confusion and the disunity. And more importantly, what does this say about God? Maybe they're not following the God that claims to not be the author of confusion.It would seem that maybe they're following after the adversary.

 

[Nufan]

I know of a Baptist and Methodist churches that do work together to feed people.
I also know of a group of Baptist, Methodist, Apostolic, and a Church of Christ that work together to care for the homeless in this area. That's a very wide range of belief systems there.




I want to make sure I'm understanding you here. Are you saying that you gotta be bigoted to follow Christ?

Well, those are some awesome examples. That's a good start. No, I'm not saying that you have to be bigoted to follow Christ. What i'm saying is that you have to be bigoted the follower religion. But to follow christ is to free yourself of bigoted ideas and views and behavior. Christ never taught that.