Loss of salvation???

[Inquisitor]

There are three senses in which we are saved. We are saved from the penalty of sin in what most people think of as saved. It is a definite point in time when whatever else one believes we become partakers of the divine nature and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. We are also now presently being saved from the power of sin. This is an ongoing process most call sanctification. And one day we will be saved from the presence of sin in the eternal estate.

As long as you are walking in the Spirit.

We must endure and remain fixated on Jesus to rescue us from ourselves.

You speak as if there is no cost to following Jesus?

 

[Inquisitor]

Those who have faith keep their souls safe. Those who shrink back follow the path to destruction. The author believes these Hebrews will choose faith over shrinking back.

Choosing Jesus and not shrinking back is an active Christian life.

Whether all the believers in Galatia called on Jesus throughout their lives is unlikely.

Paul is optimistic but Paul is no fool.

 

[Lamar]

You are ignoring the warnings Paul gave to every church.

We must endure everything that is hurled against us.

You must reject your own personal passions and desires.

Here is a simple example from the Scripture demonstrating what falling away means.

Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law;
you have fallen from grace.

What strong language Paul is using in this warning to the believers in Galatia, the church.

"severed from Christ"

"fallen from grace"

Make no mistake, you are saved eternally, if and only if, you listen to the Holy Spirit.

They don't believe that one can fall from grace, regardless of what the scriptures say.

They don't even believe that apostasy exist.

Their lives are ruled not by scripture but by their own sensibilities.

 

[Cameron143]

As long as you are walking in the Spirit.

We must endure and remain fixated on Jesus to rescue us from ourselves.

You speak as if there is no cost to following Jesus?

The cost of following Christ wasn't under consideration. It's already tough enough around here when people are talking about the same thing. Unless you think that is just part of the cost of following Jesus.

 

[Cameron143]

As long as you are walking in the Spirit.

We must endure and remain fixated on Jesus to rescue us from ourselves.

You speak as if there is no cost to following Jesus?

Think about what you are saying here. This is the mindset of the Pharisees, in my opinion, with a little twist. The onus for salvation has been transferred from Jesus to the individual. We are now back under the law to maintain approval with God. The laws have been changed, but the sentiment is the same.
This is also contrary to the reality of a real and vital relationship with God. It is God Himself who is willing and doing in us. And though we do have responsibility to work out what He is working in, we don't take the leadership role. It is Christ who is the Shepherd. He is the One who is responsible for our physical and spiritual provision. He leads, and feeds, and meets all our needs. And if you read Psalm 23, you will see that this includes today, tomorrow, and all our tomorrows.
It's not that people don't fall away from the faith; they do. But it's not that they had faith and lost it. It's that they attached themselves to Christ and the church without ever being truly saved. A gifted orator can convince people to do many things, including walking an aisle and saying a prayer. And this is what happens in many churches. And the individuals are told that they are now saved. I imagine some are. But that won't be known until fruit appears.
Lastly, think about what you are asking people to do. They couldn't obey God before they were saved. Why? Because by their own endeavor, it's not possible. Now you are asking them by their own endeavor to make sure they do something else, and expect different results.

 

[sawdust]

You are struggling now and that is obvious.

ROFL You're the one who refuses to consider context or language like my post of #384. I noticed you had nothing to say except give another verse that appears to say what you want while failing to recognise the language of that verse is speaking of the unsaved. Those who continually practice sin are the unsaved and no, they will not see eternal life, they remain dead in their sin just as you and I once were.

You are under the impression that folk who practice the deeds of the flesh,
Galatians 5:19-20. Are not believers and magically cannot pursue holiness
and love.

Rubbish. You can't read me any more than you can read scripture.

Was the letter to the Galatians addressed to the church in Galatia, believers
I would assume?

You seem to think because you're a believer you can do no wrong that you must end up maturing in the faith and overcoming sin and the world. Sadly, it is not the case, some believers only produce wood, hay and stubble.

Paul gave the Galatian believers a stern warning regarding walking in the spirit.

Yes, we are all given very strong warnings to walk by means of grace in the filling of the Spirit according to the truth. Why? Apart from the fact that it is good for us, we represent Christ in this world (we are His body) and to live as we did when unsaved is an insult of the highest order to the Most High God and we run the risk of having our lives shortened by having to face the "sin unto death". Just as the Israelites were promised long life in the land and loss of the land for failing to live according to God's commands and statutes, we lose our place in this world. Sometimes believers can sin so badly God has to take them home early.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

This has become a joke. You criticize me for making it personal and all you can do now is criticize me rather than dealing with the scriptures you raised. Talk about hypocrisy. What happened? You check your godliness at the door on the way in?

 

[sawdust]

Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law;
you have fallen from grace.

Yes, fallen from grace, not died and become unsaved once again.

Grace is God's power to achieve His will in a fallen world, given freely based on His character of love.

We walk by means of God's grace because the godly life we have been given cannot be achieved in our own power.

Even unbelievers are alive (physically) in this world by means of God's grace. The sun shines and the rain falls by means of God's grace.

Grace is God's policy of working in this world. Grace is where everything begins, for the unsaved, but especially for the saved.

 

[sawdust]

Make no mistake, you are saved eternally, if and only if, you listen to the Holy Spirit.

This has to be one of the saddest things a Christian can say. How can we have any assurance if our salvation depends on us? How do you boldly go before the throne of God if you are not even sure you are saved and belong to Him?

I want to weep from the depths of my soul for such insecurity in the face of the greatest security one can ever have, the word of God.

 

[sawdust]

They don't believe that one can fall from grace, regardless of what the scriptures say.

They don't even believe that apostasy exist.

Their lives are ruled not by scripture but by their own sensibilities.

Again, rubbish. You have not understood what has been said if you think that.

 

[Lamar]

Again, rubbish. You have not understood what has been said if you think that.

You are not even attempting to make a argument.

Cameron does not believe that someone can fall from grace.

Cameron does not believe that apostasy can exist.

It is your childish response that is rubbish.

 

[Cameron143]

You are not even attempting to make a argument.

Cameron does not believe that someone can fall from grace.

Cameron does not believe that apostasy can exist.

It is your childish response that is rubbish.

I believe someone can fall from grace. I also believe that apostacy exists.

 

[Lamar]

I believe someone can fall from grace. I also believe that apostacy exists.

Okay.

Lets see you hold to that.

 

[Cameron143]

Okay.

Lets see you hold to that.

No problem. It doesn't mean I agree with your definitions of what it means to fall from grace or your exposition of certain passages.

 

[sawdust]

You are not even attempting to make a argument.

Cameron does not believe that someone can fall from grace.

Cameron does not believe that apostasy can exist.

It is your childish response that is rubbish.

I've been giving my arguments, just not with you. You confuse the salvation we are given at the time we believe in the Gospel which cannot be lost and the salvation more commonly known as sanctification. The only thing some believers produce is rubbish to be burned (1Cor.3:12; Heb.6:8)

It is production that can be lost, not salvation from death!

God is not a fool in that He makes someone spiritually alive and establishes them in relationship with Himself if in the end they will reject Him. He knows the end from the beginning and unlike you or me, He sees into the heart of the matter as to what a person truly believes.

As far as I am aware, Cameron believes as I in regards to eternal security, believers can fall from grace and apostasy does exist.

 

[Prodigal]

This has to be one of the saddest things a Christian can say. How can we have any assurance if our salvation depends on us? How do you boldly go before the throne of God if you are not even sure you are saved and belong to Him?

I want to weep from the depths of my soul for such insecurity in the face of the greatest security one can ever have, the word of God.

I'm with you brother. This is very sad indeed. I am very ashamed to admit that I have spent most of my Christian life grieving the Holy Spirit, and outside of the expressed will of God. And yet I know, that I have never been outside if His perfect will, or His mercy and loving care.

Maybe if I had expired before getting right with Him, I would have discovered that, yes in fact, one can lose their salvation. Or that I never knew Him in the first place. But my God, the one who promised He would never leave me or forsake me, He kept His promise, He watched over me and He protected me, and at the right time, His right time, He pulled me out of the pit.

I broke all the promises I made to Him so many years ago, and the funny thing is, He knew that I would. He knew it the moment I fell to my knees and pledged my life to Him. But that didn't stop Him from giving His life to me. Or from watching over me every step of the way on the foolish path that I eventually went down. Maybe I had to go down that road? I don't know.

Could it be, as David said, that He is mindful of my frame? I let my young daughter burn her hand on a stove once, much to the chagrin of her mother. She was fascinated with the flames, I knew that one day it might lead to a very bad situation. So under my care and watchful eye, close enough to make certain that she could not do more serious injury, I allowed her to stick her precious little fingers into that burning fire. It pained me, and it pained her too. And never again did I ever have to worry about leaving her alone in the kitchen.

God deals with all of His children in His own perfect way. I would not dare in a hundred lifetimes to tell another brother that he had anything less than perfect eternal security. But I will when necessary remind my brothers and sisters to make their calling and election sure.

While I was running from God all those many years, I was pretty sure a believer could lose his salvation too. When the Lord eventually pulled me out from the net of the fowler, I knew without any doubt, that I had never truly been in any danger of losing my salvation. I did lose pretty much everything else though.

I think these brothers who feel this way have forgotten, if they ever really knew, exactly whom it is that's holding on to whom.

And yes it's very sad.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

ROFL You're the one who refuses to consider context or language like my post of #384. I noticed you had nothing to say except give another verse that appears to say what you want while failing to recognise the language of that verse is speaking of the unsaved. Those who continually practice sin are the unsaved and no, they will not see eternal life, they remain dead in their sin just as you and I once were.

Rubbish. You can't read me any more than you can read scripture.

You seem to think because you're a believer you can do no wrong that you must end up maturing in the faith and overcoming sin and the world. Sadly, it is not the case, some believers only produce wood, hay and stubble.

Yes, we are all given very strong warnings to walk by means of grace in the filling of the Spirit according to the truth. Why? Apart from the fact that it is good for us, we represent Christ in this world (we are His body) and to live as we did when unsaved is an insult of the highest order to the Most High God and we run the risk of having our lives shortened by having to face the "sin unto death". Just as the Israelites were promised long life in the land and loss of the land for failing to live according to God's commands and statutes, we lose our place in this world. Sometimes believers can sin so badly God has to take them home early.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

This has become a joke. You criticize me for making it personal and all you can do now is criticize me rather than dealing with the scriptures you raised. Talk about hypocrisy. What happened? You check your godliness at the door on the way in?

Christians can be legalistic. There is no doubt about that. This does not mean they lost their salvation. If so, the Galatians, Colossians, Romans, Ephesians, and Corinthians (and Peter and James) would have lost their salvation. And course-correction is not the same thing as getting saved again. Sadly, we see the evidence in our churches today that legalism has not been extinguished.

 

[Inquisitor]

Think about what you are saying here. This is the mindset of the Pharisees, in my opinion, with a little twist. The onus for salvation has been transferred from Jesus to the individual. We are now back under the law to maintain approval with God. The laws have been changed, but the sentiment is the same.
This is also contrary to the reality of a real and vital relationship with God. It is God Himself who is willing and doing in us. And though we do have responsibility to work out what He is working in, we don't take the leadership role. It is Christ who is the Shepherd. He is the One who is responsible for our physical and spiritual provision. He leads, and feeds, and meets all our needs. And if you read Psalm 23, you will see that this includes today, tomorrow, and all our tomorrows.
It's not that people don't fall away from the faith; they do. But it's not that they had faith and lost it. It's that they attached themselves to Christ and the church without ever being truly saved. A gifted orator can convince people to do many things, including walking an aisle and saying a prayer. And this is what happens in many churches. And the individuals are told that they are now saved. I imagine some are. But that won't be known until fruit appears.
Lastly, think about what you are asking people to do. They couldn't obey God before they were saved. Why? Because by their own endeavor, it's not possible. Now you are asking them by their own endeavor to make sure they do something else, and expect different results.

I agree that attempting to follow a legal system or a set of rules is contrary
to salvation by grace. We are required to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

The deeds of the flesh and they are numerous are the traits of unbelievers.

The visible traits of a Christian are the fruit of the HOLY SPIRIT.

Make no mistake Cameron, as a Christian if you follow the dictates of
your flesh, you will die.

When did I say that we assume the leadership?

The Lord of course is the good shepherd and Jesus leads the sheep.

Many do fall away and even ministers have fallen from grace.

OSAS is not a valid doctrine.

 

[Inquisitor]

Christians can be legalistic. There is no doubt about that. This does not mean they lost their salvation. If so, the Galatians, Colossians, Romans, Ephesians, and Corinthians (and Peter and James) would have lost their salvation. And course-correction is not the same thing as getting saved again. Sadly, we see the evidence in our churches today that legalism has not been extinguished.

You are contradicting Paul's warning to the Galatians.

Galatians 3:1-2
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ
was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you
did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Legalism is entrenched in the older traditional churches.

According to Paul, the law, the works of the law, consist of our attempt
to be righteous. The bearing of the fruit of the Holy Spirit is the Christian
life.

 

[Inquisitor]

I believe someone can fall from grace. I also believe that apostacy exists.

Of course it does, the great nation of Israel fell from grace.

That was the example set for us.

Paul had witnessed many folk falling away from Jesus.

2 Timothy 1:13-14
Hold on to the example of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love
which are in Christ Jesus. Protect, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which
has been entrusted to you.

Paul was strongly warning Timothy and in tears.

It is entirely up to us to guard by the HOLY SPIRIT what has been entrusted to us.

Protect, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us

 

[Inquisitor]

This has to be one of the saddest things a Christian can say. How can we have any assurance if our salvation depends on us? How do you boldly go before the throne of God if you are not even sure you are saved and belong to Him?

I want to weep from the depths of my soul for such insecurity in the face of the greatest security one can ever have, the word of God.

You do not understand.

We are only saved by the grace of God.

Yet, we are in a tremendous war as a Christian.

A battle between the Spirit within and our the desires of our flesh for one.

Many do not survive this first conflict.

We are also enlisted as soldiers in a lifelong battle with the forces of darkness.

The second conflict inflicts many casualties.

Paul told us that we would be persecuted and many folk cannot maintain that
trust in the Lord.

Endurance to the end.