Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Cameron143]

They did not know good and evil before they ate.

​

And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, ​

knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand ​

and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Gen 3:22​

Before they fell?
They did not know what evil was.
They were only knowing good!

Word usage in the Bible is needed to be understood..

When a hurricane destroyed an ancient village?
An ancient might say... "A great evil has overtaken our village."

Evil is bad things happening.
In the Garden it was continuous peace. No evil.
They had no knowledge of evil.

When they fell and everything began going wrong for them?

Suddenly ... they knew what evil was.

Here..

Look at Isaiah 45:7!

King James Version

I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things.



Now look how we would say it today!

​

New International Version​

I form the light and create darkness,​

I bring prosperity and create disaster;​

I, the Lord, do all these things.​

New King James Version​

I form the light and create darkness,​

I make peace and create calamity;​

I, the Lord, do all these things.’​

English Standard Version​

I form light and create darkness;​

I make well-being and create calamity;​

I am the Lord, who does all these things.​

​

According to Isaiah 45:7 Adam and Eve had no way of knowing evil until after they fell. It was the first time they experienced evil!

Our definitions of words should not be based upon our gut feelings.
But upon its usage as found in Scripture.


grace and peace!

The reference to becoming like us, knowing good and evil is a reference to experiential knowledge. The entire spiritual world experienced evil when Satan rebelled. Sin had not yet taken place on earth. But once it did, man became like God, knowing...experiencing evil.
Search the meaning of know and knowing. It means intimate, experiential knowledge, and not intellectual knowledge.

 

[Genez]

The reference to becoming like us, knowing good and evil is a reference to experiential knowledge. The entire spiritual world experienced evil when Satan rebelled. Sin had not yet taken place on earth. But once it did, man became like God, knowing...experiencing evil.
Search the meaning of know and knowing. It means intimate, experiential knowledge, and not intellectual knowledge.

That's all you were trying to say?

That's a bit different from what you said in post 9598..

Adam and Eve, in the garden, knew intellectually of the existence of both good and evil. How do we know? First, because there was a tree that they knew about called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Second, God commanded them not to eat of the tree or they would die.

They did not know what 'death' is. Nor, did they know the meaning of 'evil.'

Satan knew!
(and he was listening in!)

 

[Cameron143]

That's all you were trying to say?

That's a bit different from what you said in post 9598..

Adam and Eve, in the garden, knew intellectually of the existence of both good and evil. How do we know? First, because there was a tree that they knew about called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Second, God commanded them not to eat of the tree or they would die.

They did not know what 'death' is. Nor, did they know the meaning of 'evil.'

Satan knew!
(and he was listening in!)

And I'm the one wandering?

 

[Genez]

And I'm the one wandering?

You are not getting it.....

Nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[Mem]

Peter 2:1-5
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their riotousnesses, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you. Whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their perdition slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment. 5 And spared not the original world, but preserved Noe, the eighth person, the preacher of justice, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.

I do not subscribe to that idea either and I think I've made that clear... in quite a few posts... which you may not have seen. I add that because I always wonder when people say things like that to me as if I have said the opposite...

No doubt Christ died for sinners. But that's not what I asked you.

There's no need to wonder why there seems to be so much miscommunication, in this particular thread especially.

That it starts off with a misleading question in the first place should be the first clue. That tactic is to invite discussion and then stop your ears to any other opinion, which is offensive in itself, and designate the holder of said offensive opinon to hell.

 

[Magenta]

There's no need to wonder why there seems to be so much miscommunication, in this particular thread especially.

I am well aware of how what is said gets ignored, misrepresented, glossed over, twisted, and denied. Like being told the God we believe in is a tyrannical kidnapping fraudster because we affirm that He acts unilaterally, such as making us alive while we were dead. Still, it does not change the fact that I have clearly communicated quite a few times what I believe is meant by total depravity, which does not exist just in Calvinism, since it is part of Arminianism and Molinism also... a fact rarely mentioned or affirmed by anyone else. Just ignored.

 

[Mem]

I am well aware of how what is said gets ignored, misrepresented, glossed over, twisted, and denied. Like being told the God we believe in is a tyrannical kidnapping fraudster because we affirm that He acts unilaterally, such as making us alive while we were dead.

Who should be censored?

 

[Magenta]

Who should be censored?

Eh? The ignore button is there for a reason. It does come in handy at times. Is that what you mean?

 

[Mem]

Eh? The ignore button is there for a reason. It does come in handy at times.

I don't need a button to do that. I can't do that all by myself?

 

[Magenta]

I don't need a button to do that. I can't do that all by myself?

Of course you can. Do you call that censoring? What exactly do you mean by censoring?

 

[Mem]

Of course you can. Do you call that censoring? What exactly do you mean by censoring?

I suppose I do this with the idea of considering the curse like a bird, I'd have to look up the exact verse as I don't have it committed to memory, although the spirit of it is written on my heart.

*and I have to admit, the bird comes up often when I read some posts

 

[maxamir]

God chooses to bypass man's flesh by grace.
Once the soul is made free to believe or reject?
Then that soul will know that his choice was His own, and not something God imposed upon him.

Only crazy gods make people to reject them, so to condemn them by making them unable to choose for what's right...

What you are doing is not thinking clearly, but wanting to feel a sense of resolve, because the problem makes you feel not smart enough to figure it out.

Jumping to erroneous 'dogmatic' conclusions is where you be.
Calvinism was an attempt to resolve a deep paradox.
It found a way to make up one's mind in a manner to eliminate the destabilizing effects of ambiguity that some find too painful to tolerate

there is no confusion or paradox except in the minds of those who do not yet know who the God of Holy Scripture is and who they are before Him.

Until God humbles a person so that they come to realise that they have absolutely no righteousness in themselves and justly deserve God's perfectly good, holy and righteous wrath they will never cry out to Him for mercy and this is why a man-centred gospel is false because it robs a perfectly jealous God of the glory of salvation which belongs to Him alone and seeks to give it to men who by nature hate God and would never choose Him unless He first chose them.

 

[PaulThomson]

Here..

Look at Isaiah 45:7!

King James Version

I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things.

Forming (YaTsaR) light, and forming (BaRa') darkness:
forming ('aShaH) peace, and forming (BaRa') evil:
I am the Lord doing all these things.

Yatsar is used of forming something out of what already exists (Gen 2:7 The Lord God formed man out of the dust of the earth.)

BaRa' also means to form out of existing materials. (Gen. 1:21 And God created (BaRa') great whales and every living creature that moves, which the waters brought firth abundantly after its kind...)

As does 'aShaH. (Gen. 1:11 And God said, let the earth bring forth grass , the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding ('aShaH) fruit after its kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth; and it was so.)

These words do not only mean forming something different out of already existing materials, but also the process of moulding things into different versions of the same thing. So, forming light can mean either to produce light from existing materials, but also producing other things from the light that now exists. Forming darkness can mean forming the darkness that already exists into lighter things. Forming peace can mean using peace to produce other things or more extensive peace, or using what is not peace to produce peace. Forming evil can mean making evil out of what is not evil, or using evil that already exists to produce different forms of evil, or making something else, something good, out of existing evil.

If we keep all this in mind, it is not hard to understand Is. 45:7 in a way that maintains the goodness of God and does not need us to appeal to mystery to reconcile the contradicting claims that God cannot do evil, but He is also behind all evil, which He decreed before the world began and He is ensuring will occur by His omnipotence, whimpering "But not so as to make him responsible for the evil !"

God works to make situations, both good and bad situations, better/lighter. Evil ones are working to make things worse/darker. Sometimes God intervenes to resist the evil ones' agenda. But when people insist on God getting out and keeping out of their lives, He eventually withdraws His restraints holding the evil ones back, and darkness overtakes the rebels. This is how God shapes light, darkness, peace and evil, without Him being blameworthy in any way. No appeal to mystery is necessary.

 

[maxamir]

Yes, you did, you supported them in your post. That's why I pointed it out.



Where did I say it wasn't? Maybe read before you respond.



Nope I believe what it says, the problem is, you don't.




He says He wishes that none will perish. You don't believe what He says. Why even read the Bible?

Now you are outright slandering me by saying I support atheists when I don't even believe that atheism exists.

It is becoming more evident that you do not yet have a handle on what the whole scope of Scripture says and instead take verses out of context to suit your man-centred false theology such as the one below.

Who is the "us" in the verse?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Try reading the first verse of the epistle to get the answer.

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Because you have succumbed to the lie that God loves absolutely everyone, even those He justly casts into Hell and eternally torments, you have perverted God's holy name and His perfectly holy and eternal attributes which never change and in turn you pervert the Gospel of the glory of His grace which is given before time began to those He has chosen to save.

2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Does scripture say anywhere that anyone is chosen by God for salvation? it seems to me to say God chooses people for roles of service.

SO, apparently, your, answer equates to: "No, I read that into the text "

So, where is the scripture that says someone is chosen for salvation? or rather, for entry level salvation; that is, chosen to be given ears that listen, and understanding, and faith o believe what God is saying to them, so as to be reckoned righteous by God.

My answer is yes. You cannot separate chosen from in Him. Whatever is entailed in...in Him...is included.

Apostles and prophets are chosen in Him . Does that mean all are chosen in Him are chosen to serve as apostles and prophets?

 

[Genez]

there is no confusion or paradox except in the minds of those who do not yet know who the God of Holy Scripture is and who they are before Him.

Until God humbles a person so that they come to realise that they have absolutely no righteousness in themselves and justly deserve God's perfectly good, holy and righteous wrath they will never cry out to Him for mercy and this is why a man-centred gospel is false because it robs a perfectly jealous God of the glory of salvation which belongs to Him alone and seeks to give it to men who by nature hate God and would never choose Him unless He first chose them.

Are you done yet

 

[Hakawaka]

"save" and cognates always has to be interpreted in context. It's a very basic word (e.g. save from drowning, from enemies, etc.) and then as you allude to, there are different aspects or phases to our salvation and different things being accomplished through the process until completed. I was surprised when I studied and taught it how little the entrance into salvation was being discussed in Scripture (where "salvation" is stated) and how much the discussion is looking through that entrance and into the process of being saved (aka progressive sanctification as it's called by some). IOW, more of the NC dealing with salvation words is focused on Christians growing up in Christ in Spirit than it is being born into Christ in Spirit.

Yes exactly. We were saved, are being saved and will be saved!

 

[studier]

Yes exactly. We were saved, are being saved and will be saved!

Many know this, but it astounds me how few will acknowledge our mandated work in the process. Of course, we can't do it apart from Him. This is vividly clear and unquestionable. But the minute one of us says something about the work He has us doing under His grace, along comes the crazy works salvation charges. As you mentioned before, then comes the antinomianism. Along with it, comes a bunch of erroneous interpretation of Scriptures.

IMO, anything that distracts from the Biblically proper role of man's obedience to God in any way, is always the battle. It began in the Garden, it's what our Lord reversed, it's what is being reversed in those whom He is saving. It is Faith and it is Love. Proper relationship with our Creator.

 

[studier]

PaulThomson said:
Does scripture say anywhere that anyone is chosen by God for salvation? it seems to me to say God chooses people for roles of service.

SO, apparently, your, answer equates to: "No, I read that into the text "

So, where is the scripture that says someone is chosen for salvation? or rather, for entry level salvation; that is, chosen to be given ears that listen, and understanding, and faith o believe what God is saying to them, so as to be reckoned righteous by God.

NKJ 2Thess 2:19-14 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


From our fairly brief exposure to one another, IMO you seem to value understanding what Scripture says and means and you don't seem to be tied down to any particular theological camp. I'll leave it to you to correct me if/where I may be wrong.

How do you read what the above says and means?

I'll start by noting that the "call" is by means of the Gospel - Paul's and his associates' Gospel. So, if the Gospel is to be given to all, then all are called, which can be at minimum as simple as "invited" or more legally formal as "summoned."

So, how does "chose" work?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Now you are outright slandering me by saying I support atheists when I don't even believe that atheism exists.

Of course atheism exists!! smh I said your argument supports their POV.

It is becoming more evident that you do not yet have a handle on what the whole scope of Scripture says and instead take verses out of context to suit your man-centred false theology such as the one below.

No, you utterly deny the plain text of Scripture!! You're no one that should be teaching anyone anything! You're as confused as a termite in a yo-yo.

Because you have succumbed to the lie that God loves absolutely everyone

I believe what the Word says. It says while we were still sinners, He loved us. It says salvation is for all. Anything different than that is a lie from the pit of hell. I don't care WHO taught it, it's a flat out lie and false doctrine.

, even those He justly casts into Hell and eternally torments,

Another lie from the pit of hell. God doesn't send anyone to hell. "For the wages of sin is death", if we continue in sin, we will end up in hell. Every person who ends up in Hell is there because of their own decision to reject God’s offer of salvation. God cannot be blamed for the decisions of man. C.S. Lewis put it this way, “No one will ever go to Heaven deservingly and no one will ever go to Hell unwillingly.”
Jesus says, “‘Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven’

you have perverted God's holy name and His perfectly holy and eternal attributes which never change and in turn you pervert the Gospel of the glory of His grace which is given before time began to those He has chosen to save.

You've chosen to believe a lie in spite of everything Scripture says. I have never seen a person so lost who believes they are right. It's in black and white in front of you and you still deny what the Word says. You're believing a false doctrine. The pity is it's taken such a violent hold on you I don't know if you will ever see the truth.For your sake, I hope you do.