Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Genez]

The law has many purposes. It reveals much about God. It restrains sin. It also preserved Israel from destruction until Messiah.
Did anyone need to tell Cain that murder was wrong? Did God need the law to pass judgment on all mankind?
And knowing what is wrong doesn't empower one to do right. The law convicts. It also leads one to Christ.

I was talking about the part of the Law that you should know about.... And, you did.
I did not ask for a dissertation about the various aspects of the Law that does not pertain to the aspect I was pointing to.

You just wander....

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Some are.

They may be trying, but they can;t and in doing so. They put themselves back under law and not under grace

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You mean we're saved and being saved and will be saved and while being saved we're working together with God to accomplish our salvation, which eventuates in we will be saved, correct?

No. if this is true, then we are not really saved..

If you agree with the above, I may agree with you.

We do not and can not do Anything to keep ourself saved

But, I'm cautious of arbitrarily accepting this because it spreads at minimum to some who are not saved but think they are and will receive a rude awakening at some point.

Oh I agree. Many in that day will say Lord Lord..

 

[studier]

They may be trying, but they can;t and in doing so. They put themselves back under law and not under grace

Sorry to not be cleat. My response was to your first statement.

 

[studier]

No. if this is true, then we are not really saved..

Read Philippians 2:12-13. The word typically translated "work out" means to accomplish by work. Then read again what I wrote.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Read Philippians 2:12-13. The word typically translated "work out" means to accomplish by work. Then read again what I wrote.

Yes,

It is actually a mining term, it means to work out what is already there

We are already saved, he said to work that salvation out.

He did not say to work to earn that salvation.

Your already saved.. just like the valuable items the miners are working out is already there, You have to work it out to get the benefits of whats already there.

 

[MerSee]

Yes,

It is actually a mining term, it means to work out what is already there

We are already saved, he said to work that salvation out.

He did not say to work to earn that salvation.

Your already saved.. just like the valuable items the miners are working out is already there, You have to work it out to get the benefits of whats already there.

Do you believe the current spiritual condition of your soul is everlasting?

 

[MerSee]

Again, that is your perception of it. You can't know you are right until you've gone there (and forever and ever means that there is no coming back).

Peter 2:1-5
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their riotousnesses, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you. Whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their perdition slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment. 5 And spared not the original world, but preserved Noe, the eighth person, the preacher of justice, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.

 

[Genez]

The law has many purposes. It reveals much about God. It restrains sin. It also preserved Israel from destruction until Messiah.
Did anyone need to tell Cain that murder was wrong? Did God need the law to pass judgment on all mankind?
And knowing what is wrong doesn't empower one to do right. The law convicts. It also leads one to Christ.

Its called "knowledge" of good and evil.

Its not called...

Instinct for knowing good and evil.


God told Cain that murder is wrong!

Where are you???

 

[studier]

Yes,

It is actually a mining term, it means to work out what is already there

We are already saved, he said to work that salvation out.

He did not say to work to earn that salvation.

Your already saved.. just like the valuable items the miners are working out is already there, You have to work it out to get the benefits of whats already there.

It's a very simple couple of verses with a very simple Greek word that is not really a mining term. It's simply an intensified form of the word we translate as "work" and the intensification emphasizes the sense of accomplishing by work.

If you read what I wrote, I said we're (we are) saved then being saved... In this being saved phase we Christians are working with God to accomplish the salvation we have from God. This is very clear in those 2 verses no matter what sensitivities translators have had through the centuries.

We're essentially saying the same thing. I'm just not as sensitive as others when it comes to overprotecting against work in salvation where Scripture is clear that God is providing His capacities to His children so they can both will and do what pleases Him = working with Him to accomplish what He has given us to do.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Do you believe the current spiritual condition of your soul is everlasting?

Lets see,

I am told I will never die
I am told I will live forever
I am told I will be raised on the last day
I am told I was sealed by the spirit until the day of ressurection.
I am told I will never be lost
I am told I have overcome the world
I am told I will spend eternity with God.

so yeah. I would say it is eternal. Based on the hope that was given me, and my trust in that hope..

do you?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It's a very simple couple of verses with a very simple Greek word that is not really a mining term. It's simply an intensified form of the word we translate as "work" and the intensification emphasizes the sense of accomplishing by work.

You should do some study

Katergazomai - "Work out" doesn't mean simply "work hard at something," as when we do a physical workout. Katergazomai here means something like "bring forth" or "bring out into view" what is already within. The Roman scholar Strabo, in his discourse on geography (60 BC), uses katergazomai when describing mining operations.

If you read what I wrote, I said we're (we are) saved then being saved...

yes I read this, alot of people think this, then claim we must keep ourself saved, if we do not finish our being saved, we will be lost.. I am trying to determine which one you are. I have not yet made up my mind, because you seem to be saying both. But I do not want to assume

In this being saved phase we Christians are working with God to accomplish the salvation we have from God. This is very clear in those 2 verses no matter what sensitivities translators have had through the centuries.

SO you have to accomplish what you already have? what if you do not accomplish it?

We're essentially saying the same thing. I'm just not as sensitive as others when it comes to overprotecting against work in salvation where Scripture is clear that God is providing His capacities to His children so they can both will and do what pleases Him = working with Him to accomplish what He has given us to do.

eph 2: 10 says we are saved by grace through faith. and those who are saved will work.

Work in a believe is not a must, it is a result.

sadly many think it is a must..

 

[HeIsHere]

Read Philippians 2:12-13. The word typically translated "work out" means to accomplish by work. Then read again what I wrote.

This makes sense to me ... I think I may have discussed this with you before, not sure how far that conversation went but "saved" also is connected to the physical and the soul, not always saved (regeneration).

I would say a lot of what Paul writes is about the salvation of the soul.
When the writers of the epistles wrote they were addressing those whom they believed were an audience born from above, unless they are addressing an interlocutor as in the Book of James.
In this way scripture is not contradictory. Growing up in culture that uses "saved" many different ways I completely understand the expressive style.

 

[Rufus]

I was never without hope, because Christ died for the ungodly.

No doubt Christ died for sinners. But that's not what I asked you.

 

[Magenta]

I don't subscribe to the idea that the ungodly have no choice but to be anything other than ungodly. Turning to Christ for salvation, which is their need to do, is anything but ungodly, even if it is nothing near godlike.

I do not subscribe to that idea either and I think I've made that clear... in quite a few posts... which you may not have seen. I add that because I always wonder when people say things like that to me as if I have said the opposite...

 

[Rufus]

Its called "knowledge" of good and evil.

Its not called...

Instinct for knowing good and evil.


God told Cain that murder is wrong!

Where are you???

On the other hand, all men intuitively know the Law:

Rom 2:14-15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
NIV

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

On the other hand, all men intuitively know the Law:

Rom 2:14-15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
NIV

Are you saying the Law of Moses is still current today and active?

 

[studier]

You should do some study

Katergazomai - "Work out" doesn't mean simply "work hard at something," as when we do a physical workout. Katergazomai here means something like "bring forth" or "bring out into view" what is already within. The Roman scholar Strabo, in his discourse on geography (60 BC), uses katergazomai when describing mining operations.

Now, now. Keep it civil and please don't tell me what I should do.

Just because one person in history is referenced to have used a word a certain way does not mean all referenced sources used it that way.

The word is used 32x in Scripture. Phl2:12 is the only time translators chose to translate it as "work out" and IMO it's clear why - because they are being sensitive to not get close to the works salvation issue, which also IMO is overprotected to the point of absurdity. IMO it's simply another example of how men swing the pendulum too far to the opposite extreme instead of coming to a balanced and Biblical view of what is and is not Biblical works.

yes I read this, alot of people think this, then claim we must keep ourself saved, if we do not finish our being saved, we will be lost.. I am trying to determine which one you are. I have not yet made up my mind, because you seem to be saying both. But I do not want to assume

Thanks for not assuming, but you do seem to be leaning towards assuming. How about I leave it like this:

• We are saved by grace through faith
• Under grace in faith we do what we're commanded to do as our Father provides His capacities so we can work with Him to accomplish our salvation with fear and trembling.
• If someone is not doing this, then I'd be concerned at minimum that he will be under discipline by our Father or that He did not grant him to His Son.

SO you have to accomplish what you already have? what if you do not accomplish it?

• We do what we're commanded to do and Phil2:13 is attached to and explains 2:12.
• Salvation is a process and a project. Processes and projects are to be accomplished/completed.
• See above re: your second question.

eph 2: 10 says we are saved by grace through faith. and those who are saved will work.

Work in a believe is not a must, it is a result.

sadly many think it is a must..

I'm note sure exactly what you're saying in your second sentence, so the following may or may not be applicable.

So, how is Eph2:10 not comparable to Phil2:12-13 both written by Paul?

And how is a result not a must? We're created for the purpose of good works, but we don't have to do them?

 

[rogerg]

Katergazomai - "Work out" doesn't mean simply "work hard at something," as when we do a physical workout. Katergazomai here means something like "bring forth" or "bring out into view" what is already within. The Roman scholar Strabo, in his discourse on geography (60 BC), uses katergazomai when describing mining operations.

A concept similar to that of Romans 10:17 regarding faith, in that faith must first spiritually be given and present within us, and by that, through the hearing of scripture, does it intellectually manifest itself unto us.

[Rom 10:17 KJV] 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Now, now. Keep it civil and please don't tell me what I should do.

Then do not try to tell me I am wrong when you have not studied.

Just because one person in history is referenced to have used a word a certain way does not mean all referenced sources used it that way.

It was more than one person. It was used by Many romans,,

The word is used 32x in Scripture. Phl2:12 is the only time translators chose to translate it as "work out" and IMO it's clear why - because they are being sensitive to not get close to the works salvation issue, which also IMO is overprotected to the point of absurdity. IMO it's simply another example of how men swing the pendulum too far to the opposite extreme instead of coming to a balanced and Biblical view of what is and is not Biblical works.

Not sure what your trying to say here

Thanks for not assuming, but you do seem to be leaning towards assuming.

I am trying not to assume thats why I ask questions..

How about I leave it like this:

• We are saved by grace through faith
• Under grace in faith we do what we're commanded to do as our Father provides His capacities so we can work with Him to accomplish our salvation with fear and trembling.
• If someone is not doing this, then I'd be concerned at minimum that he will be under discipline by our Father or that He did not grant him to His Son.

I am with you here

• We do what we're commanded to do and Phil2:13 is attached to and explains 2:12.
• Salvation is a process and a project. Processes and projects are to be accomplished/completed.
• See above re: your second question.

[/quote]
So if we do not complete it are we still saved?

see this is why I ask, It appears your saying we have to continue to save ourself. I evidently am not the only one who thinks this, It may be by how you word things.

I'm note sure exactly what you're saying in your second sentence, so the following may or may not be applicable.

So, how is Eph2:10 not comparable to Phil2:12-13 both written by Paul?

And how is a result not a must? We're created for the purpose of good works, but we don't have to do them?

lol. see your towing the line that we must work or we will not be saved.

I ask you. why is it a MUST if it is a WILL.

Works are a byproduct of salvation, Not a prerequisite to be saved.

I still to this moment do not know what you really believe concerning eternal life and eternal salvation.