Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Rufus]

The flesh runs on instinct: fight or flight. The spirit runs on revelation: stand still and see the salvation of the lord; stand still and love your others as you love yourself.

The flesh's motivation is opposite to the spirit's. The flesh says, "I must survive.i hve only this physical life." The spirit says, "There is a part of me that will survive beyond this life, and I must prepare myself to inherit a good afterlife bu living in a noble manner."

The spirit of both the natural man and the soiritual man CAN reason this counter-instinctual way by setting their mind on spiritul things rather than fleshly things. Because you are reading scripture through the lens of Augustine;'s Manichaen gnosticim, you do not understand the semantic range of ":flesh", and are failing to distinguish in scripture between the flesh created to be a physical instumrnt of the soul/spirit and is fearfully and wonderfully made good vs. the flesh as animal instinct, which opposes any good benevolent intentions of the soul/spirit..

Nice theory but it doesn't work. Only the spiritual man with the Spirit of God has spiritual discernment. The natural man cannot understand the the things of God. How can he? God is the Source of all Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding, and God-hating men t want no part of his truth, which is why don't seek Him. The world hates God and his Christ because the Godhead testifies that what the worlde does is evil (Jn 7:7)! And men don't care much for having their sins thrown into their faces.

 

[Genez]

He saw Jesus day when God provided Himself as a lamb. You can read about it in Genesis 22. Pay special attention to verses 8 and 13.

Abraham met the Lord in Genesis 18.
It begins with that "three men" appeared to him while Abraham sat before his tent.

Later we find out that two of the three were the two angels that went to Sodom to liberate Lot's family before the destruction of Sodom.

But, it says as the two walked towards Sodom that one of the men stayed behind with Abraham and spoke with him.
That one? Says is the Lord God.

The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord. ​

​

Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?​

​

Genesis 18:22-23​

Abraham stood before the Lord and spoke with Him. One who made an appearance as a man.

 

[Magenta]

1 Corinthians 1:27-29

 

[Rufus]

It's good to have you looking at actual Scripture in actual context. You are free to keep it as simple as you like. I'll take it word by word and define every word and grammatical construction in places and follow the context from phrase to phrase with all the grammatical markers. If we end up with the same meaning, that's a good thing.

For starters, I won't rely on the NIV. and I'll probably end up taking issue with it quite a bit. Secondly, since you're touching on it and seeing it in focus, the 3 phases of salvation concept is very often in view when "salvation is mentioned and contextual work may require us to determine what phases(s) are being discussed, So, what do you see as the main focus of salvation here, if there is one - #1, 2, or 3, or all or ?? or is it important (if it works for you, #1-3 is easier for me than the common Just., Sanct., Glor., which I don't care for because it's not really accurate)? You seem to be saying #1 is not in view. I'm not prepared to agree for a few reasons, but they're not that important at the moment, and I can flow with you for now. There are a few nuances I'm still looking at.

FWIW, looking at the options to translate the language elaborating a bit on the words, at this time I'd say: [God's} Gospel [concerning God's Son Jesus Christ...] is God's power for the purpose of salvation for the benefit of all [men] who believe [it/Him].

Since "salvation" can carry a nuance as a verbal noun (salvation <> saving) that language could be considered if useful for thinking and interpreting, to say "...God's power for the purpose of saving all [men] who believe it (and thus believe Him)."

From there, "from first to last" is interpretive. There are some other ways to interpret it that don't take us so directly into the 3 phases, and I have some thoughts I've carried for some time re: what Hosea is saying and how it may well be coloring Paul's use a bit differently than translated and then interpreted.

All of this really boils down to what point Paul is making before he gets into the part about Knowing & Understanding God. He's dealing with the revealing of God's wrath vs. God's righteousness. And there is a likelihood that righteousness and salvation are parallels.

FWIW, we may not be too far apart on 1:16 and I'll leave that for you to decide. Here's my take for now: The context is mainly dealing with phase 2, that will have an effect on phase 2 and 3, but does not exclude phase 1 mainly because what God is doing in this includes bringing men into phase 1 so more are involved in phase 2, affecting 2-3, and the circle or increasing upward spiral continues.

For you, I think you're going to have to consider what the power of the Gospel is in drawing more men to Jesus Christ as more and more men are revealing God's righteousness which in reality is what God's Gospel does. And if God's righteousness and God's salvation are indeed parallel here (as they are in places in OC Scripture as I recall) then what is the power of more and more men revealing God's righteousness / God's salvation comprehensively by faith?

Simple works at times. What Paul is saying is not simple until he's more fully understood, Peter.

You spend so many words to say so little. A typical strategy by those who seek to justify their theology by bending scripture to accommodate it. Rom 1:16 does not differ substantially from what Paul wrote in 1Thes 2:13! So, you don't like the NIV? My, my okay. Can we try the AMP on for size?

Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the Gospel (good news) of Christ, for it is God's power working unto salvation [for deliverance from eternal death] to everyone who believes with a personal trust and a confident surrender and firm reliance, to the Jew first and also to the Greek,
AMP

Compare to:

1 Thess 2:13
13 And we also [especially] thank God continually for this, that when you received the message of God [which you heard] from us, you welcomed it not as the word of [mere] men, but as it truly is, the Word of God, which is effectually at work in you who believe [exercising its superhuman power in those who adhere to and trust in and rely on it].
AMP

So, if the Word of God is effectually working in "you who believe", wouldn't this also be saying that the Gospel is pretty powerful -- that it's God power working unto salvation? And for whom? For those who believe. It would be for the same people as in Rom 1.

Paul is very consistent with himself. You, on the other hand, not so much. You picture unbelievers as gaining access to God's power through their faith, as though they initiated their own salvation!

 

[Cameron143]

Abraham met the Lord in Genesis 18.
It begins with that "three men" appeared to him while Abraham sat before his tent.

Later we find out that two of the three were the two angels that went to Sodom to liberate Lot's family before the destruction of Sodom.

But, it says as the two walked towards Sodom that one of the men stayed behind with Abraham and spoke with him.
That one? Says is the Lord God.

The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord. ​

​

Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?​

​

Genesis 18:22-23​

Abraham stood before the Lord and spoke with Him. One who made an appearance as a man.

Yes Abraham had already met Jesus. The question was when did he see His day and rejoice in it.

 

[Rufus]

While it is true that Christ is the perfect revelation of the Father, and every aspect of God that we receive must come through Christ, it is not stated that propositions about Christ and personal experiences with the person of Christ, are the only ways by which Christ makes God known. Knowing enough about God to be saved, and knowing God deeply and intimately, are not necessarily the same thing.

Eternal Life is not about merely knowing things about God. The warp 'n' woof of Christianity is a loving, intimate, personal, covenantal relationship with the Creator-Redeemer which none us can have apart from actually knowing Him. The relationship is so personal and intimate that some of us can call God, "Abba".

 

[Rufus]

Silly question.

Man as created by God has the God given ability to freely choose to receive or to reject information [and all that comes with it] that God freely gives.

Thanks for your non-answer. If God has universally given all men the power to freely choose TO..., then why would any man need to access God's power that works unto salvation? Don't you recall what you wrote?

 

[Magenta]

Eternal Life is not about merely knowing things about God. The warp 'n' woof of Christianity is a loving,
intimate, personal, covenantal relationship with the Creator-Redeemer which none us can have apart from
actually knowing Him. The relationship is so personal and intimate that some of us can call God, "Abba".

John 17:2-3~ You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.

 

[Rufus]

Asked and answered too many times.

But originally Rom 1 was all about understanding, wasn't it (Rom 1:20)?

 

[Rufus]

John 17:2-3~ You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.

And the implications to that passage are incredibly huge and awesome. The passage clearly implies that the spiritually dead cannot have any true knowledge or understanding of God. If they could, then why would God's elect need spiritual life for that kind of knowledge and understanding?

 

[studier]

Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the Gospel (good news) of Christ, for it is God's power working unto salvation [for deliverance from eternal death] to everyone who believes with a personal trust and a confident surrender and firm reliance, to the Jew first and also to the Greek,
AMP

I would think you'd run from the AMP version. Believe with a personal trust, a confident surrender, a firm reliance are all activities done by your corpse-man.

1 Thess 2:13
13 And we also [especially] thank God continually for this, that when you received the message of God [which you heard] from us, you welcomed it not as the word of [mere] men, but as it truly is, the Word of God, which is effectually at work in you who believe [exercising its superhuman power in those who adhere to and trust in and rely on it].
AMP

Again, your corpse-man received God's message & welcomed it as the Word of God. Both again are activities done by your corpse-man who somehow as a corpse-man can hate the One he personally trusts, confidently surrenders to, relies upon firmly, receive His message and welcomes His message as His Word.

You're an odd-duck Rufus.

You are however a bright and shiny example of just how blinded one can be by false doctrine.

 

[Rufus]

I would think you'd run from the AMP version. Believe with a personal trust, a confident surrender, a firm reliance are all activities done by your corpse-man.

Nope. That's all done by believers. What part of "who believe" don't you understand?

Again, your corpse-man received God's message & welcomed it as the Word of God. Both again are activities done by your corpse-man who somehow as a corpse-man can hate the One he personally trusts, confidently surrenders to, relies upon firmly, receive His message and welcomes His message as His Word.

You're an odd-duck Rufus.

You are however a bright and shiny example of just how blinded one can be by false doctrine.

Precious! The pot calling the kettle black!

 

[Magenta]

And the implications to that passage are incredibly huge and awesome. The passage clearly implies
that the spiritually dead cannot have any true knowledge or understanding of God. If they could, then
why would God's elect need spiritual life for that kind of knowledge and understanding?

Clearly there is a transitional stage between what God does and our eventual response... some
may respond in the positive or affirmative quite quickly, and others comparatively speaking,
really quite slowly. I would place myself in the second group, and it is because of my recalcitrance
that I am really quite familiar with the characteristics and abilities of the natural man, those very
things so many here seem to outright deny despite many Scriptures outlining the condition... and
I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was unable to choose to believe without God performing
a work in me which I believe to have been the circumcision of my heart. It is too bad so many are
blinded by the false doctrine of free will, especially since it is nowhere found in the Bible.

 

[studier]

And the implications to that passage are incredibly huge and awesome. The passage clearly implies that the spiritually dead cannot have any true knowledge or understanding of God. If they could, then why would God's elect need spiritual life for that kind of knowledge and understanding?

LXA Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and brought forth Cain and said, I have gained a man through God.

NKJ John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Same Greek word.

 

[studier]

Nope. That's all done by believers. What part of "who believe" don't you understand?

Yes, some of us understand how the TULIP theory works.

 

[Cameron143]

LXA Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and brought forth Cain and said, I have gained a man through God.

NKJ John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Same Greek word.

Matthew 7:23...I never knew you...

 

[Magenta]

Matthew 7:23...I never knew you...

Are we now to believe having an intimate relationship requires sexual intercourse? .

 

[Cameron143]

Are we now to believe having an intimate relationship requires sexual intercourse? .

I'm not sure what his point was. I'm pretty sure it wasn't as you asked, but it does make me wonder if those who believe salvation is a choice or decision have truly known how intimate an event salvation truly is.

 

[studier]

But originally Rom 1 was all about understanding, wasn't it (Rom 1:20)?

It's clear what it's about and it's clear you can't refute it.

 

[studier]

Matthew 7:23...I never knew you...

Yes, same word. It has some range of meaning, doesn't it...