Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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We need more context here, please.

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known
what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was
if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”


But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting.
For apart from the law, sin was dead.


Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.


Romans 7:7-10


Paul, while alive as a human, while he did not know the law?
At that time he was yet dead to the law.
While dead to the law? He did not know what sin was.

But when the Law was learned by him?
His old (carefree) life had died.
For the Law and the knowledge of sin produced what in Paul?
It had killed his ability to be living his old carefree life!
Hence? ... "He died!"

grace and peace .......
Does "dead" in "sin was dead" mean the same thing to you as "dead" means in "dead in sins" and in "dead to righteousness"? If so, what is the common sense of "dead"?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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Does "dead" in "sin was dead" mean the same thing to you as "dead" means in "dead in sins" and in "dead to righteousness"? If so, what is the common sense of "dead"?
It all depends on context and how much knowledge one has learned to think with.

Philippians 1:9-10​
And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight,
so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ.


........
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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Well I guess we have both seen those who characterize God as being an unjust tyrant Who kidnaps people against their so-called "free will" because He acts unilaterally to quicken them to life so that they may love Him as He does them... Oh and I don't know why you're saying all that about being mad or trying to devour anyone because I don't believe I have or would ever say those things about you !!! much love to you my sister in Christ 🥰
Just checking, thinking that I'm here to devour people seems to be trending. :unsure:
And yes, I did see that and considered it as a use in hyperbole as a literary device to communicate a perception, even if it is an extreme example. Of course, nobody actually believes that you personally consider yourself to have been abducted... do you?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Just checking, thinking that I'm here to devour people seems to be trending. :unsure:
And yes, I did see that and considered it as a use in hyperbole as a literary device to communicate a perception, even if it is an extreme example. Of course, nobody actually believes that you personally consider yourself to have been abducted... do you?
Well, the person who said those things and those who agree with him seem to believe what was said about God being an unjust tyrant kidnapping people against their free will, and the offer of salvation/repentance being fraudulent etc etc ... of course that is their way to slander those they disagree with, by making erroneous assumptions and false accusations among a slew of other logical fallacies they seem quite attached to, as they have repeated them, possibly more times than I have actually seen, because I usually have that one person on ignore after he repeatedly lied to me. However, I have seen his list of misrepresentations, mischaracterizations, and blasphemy against God more than once.

I did not know you had a trend going on!!! I have not been here as often as I was not too long ago...
and during the day, for instance earlier today, I was at work, and we have suddenly become quite busy
with the end of the school year presenting us with lots of graduation photos to process. So although
I popped on a couple of times, I could not hang out as I might have at other times due to my work load.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,127
2,157
113
Well, the person who said those things and those who agree with him seem to believe what was said about God being an unjust tyrant kidnapping people against their free will, and the offer of salvation/repentance being fraudulent etc etc ... of course that is their way to slander those they disagree with, by making erroneous assumptions and false accusations among a slew of other logical fallacies they seem quite attached to, as they have repeated them, possibly more times than I have actually seen, because I usually have that one person on ignore after he repeatedly lied to me. However, I have seen his list of misrepresentations, mischaracterizations, and blasphemy against God more than once.

I did not know you had a trend going on!!! I have not been here as often as I was not too long ago...
and during the day, for instance earlier today, I was at work, and we have suddenly become quite busy
with the end of the school year presenting us with lots of graduation photos to process. So although
I popped on a couple of times, I could not hang out as I might have at other times due to my work load.
It's nothing, I just disagreed and suddenly I'm trying to devour people because I have a lion as an avatar.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,841
29,222
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It's nothing, I just disagreed and suddenly I'm trying to devour people because I have a lion as an avatar.
Yes, I get it, people jump right to slander at the drop of a hat, as if it is nothing.

I'm sorry that has happened to you.

:cry:
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Soo...given what you first asked, I ask in return: If natural man has the inherent power to believe the gospel, then why would he need to gain access to God's power? If he had the power to run to first base, why would he need more power to make it home? Are you suggesting that man who began the work of his own salvation doesn't have enough will power to complete it?
Silly question.

Man as created by God has the God given ability to freely choose to receive or to reject information [and all that comes with it] that God freely gives.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,467
451
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PaulThomson said:
Does "dead" in "sin was dead" mean the same thing to you as "dead" means in "dead in sins" and in "dead to righteousness"? If so, what is the common sense of "dead"?

It all depends on context and how much knowledge one has learned to think with.

Philippians 1:9-10​
And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight,
so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ.


........
I don't think you answered the quesruon..
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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I didn't say that knowing about God is enough to save someone.

I can clarify: Knowing enough about God so that one can trust enough of what one knows to be saved......
Trusting what one knows doesn't save anyone. Faith has Christ as it's object; not knowledge.
To those who are perishing, the gospel is foolishness anyways. It's not that they don't understand the claims being made in the gospel. They simply reject it. This is fallen man's default position. When someone gets saved it is because God has drawn near and personally introduced Himself.
God came to Adam and Eve directly after their fall. God came and walked with Enoch. God came and spoke to Noah. God came and spoke to Abraham. And God still comes near today and speaks into creation new creations wherein old things pass away and all things become new. His sheep hear His voice.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,790
410
83
PaulThomson said:
Does "dead" in "sin was dead" mean the same thing to you as "dead" means in "dead in sins" and in "dead to righteousness"? If so, what is the common sense of "dead"?



I don't think you answered the quesruon..
Sorry. The question you asked would most likely require about three hours of teaching to cover all you wanted to know.
Maybe only one hour.

Not trying to be factitious.

Most Christians receive only weak or poor teachings....
If someone really wants to know something in depth?
They seek for a teacher whom God has qualified.

I'm not such a teacher.
But, the answer.. I have found, you will find a way of avoiding.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see His day and saw it.
Who do you suppose Abraham talked and met with during His lifetime?
yhe greek word for rejoiced means to leap much. I believe jesus is painting a picture here of Abraham leaping into the ait trying to see over the temporal horizon to catch a glimpse of hoe the promises would be fulfilled., and God gave Abraham some revelation and insight into the work Jesus would come to do, and Abraham was glad when he received this insight. .

Jesus said, Abraham leaped much to see My day and he saw it. and was gled.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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yhe greek word for rejoiced means to leap much. I believe jesus is painting a picture here of Abraham leaping into the ait trying to see over the temporal horizon to catch a glimpse of hoe the promises would be fulfilled., and God gave Abraham some revelation and insight into the work Jesus would come to do, and Abraham was glad when he received this insight. .

Jesus said, Abraham leaped much to see My day and he saw it. and was gled.
He saw Jesus day when God provided Himself as a lamb. You can read about it in Genesis 22. Pay special attention to verses 8 and 13.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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@Rufus copying and pasting these because I can't quote them with a click:

Consciousness does not = understanding. Look up the definitions of both. One can indeed be "conscious" (i.e. aware) of an external object, state or fact and at the same time not understand or totally understand of what it is we're sensing or feeling or thinking. Nice try in moving the goal posts, though. It's a typical equivocating strategy employed by Man in the Natural.
  • Rom1:20 says understanding. It's your responsibility to read Scripture and define words. I actually did some work for you.
  • We can use God Knowing & Understanding or something similar if it'll assist you and help you stop making excuses for not reading and defining words in Scripture. "God Consciousness" is definitely a somewhat common theological construct I thought you had a handle on.

And what in the world are you talking about with my "seeds theories"? As God is my witness, two seeds are talked about in Gen 3:15. I label your lack of answer as Total Inability (1st kissin' cousin to TD) to honestly and coherently address the passage without your bias against the Doctrines of Grace. But I'm not surprised, so don't feel like you've disappointed me. How often did the enemies of Christ fail to answer his questions? Don't you know that what you fail to do or do to me, you likewise fail or do to Him?
  • As far as I'm concerned everything you say is your theory. I've come to this conclusion because I don't see you putting forth much of any accuracy FROM the Text. I have seen some novel theories combined with a lot of Calvinism which I also think is theoretical. You're work is unconvincing so far.
  • I did take note of what you said about Rom1:16 and after things settled down this evening, I did start going through Rom1 once again. Always interesting.
Show me in Romans 1 where Paul talks about "God consciousness". Of course, you can't, so you just came up with your wacky-doodle theory, didn't you?

Conversely, Gen 3:15 does explicitly speak of two seeds. Yet, you characterize those seeds as being my theory? (When you attended seminary or whatever they must have offered a course in Lame Excuses 101, which you obviously aced!) And then you brag about what a great a expositor of scripture you are. Oy Vey! :rolleyes:

But before I let you go, I'm going to rattle your cage with another great analogy.

Before Adam sinned the image of his Maker that was imprinted upon his soul must have also been "very good". But that changed after he fell and plunged the human race into ruin. The image remains, but it, too, is ruined. I believe all men know or sense intuitively that Something greater than they exist. Some call it a "higher power", "prime mover", "deity", "spirit", God, etc. The bible and Natural Revelation both tell us that mankind is as idolatrous as it is religious, which accounts for the numerous religions that exist in this world to this day. The sons of men just cannot help but turn God's image within them inside out and make God into their own image -- according to their own carnal, profane, wicked imaginations. Why do men do this? They do it because the image within them is so distorted, twisted and perverted that they can't understand what they are "seeing" within themselves --what it is that they're sensing, feeling, etc. So out of their frustration and to satisfy their own guilty conscience (yes, I believe all men know they are sinners!), man has decided to replace the marred and defaced image with an idol of their own making that they can understand. This is why all man-made religions, save for the more metaphysical ones that tend to be highly abstract, have one thing in common: They're all works-based. Sinners think they can do something to mitigate their guilt and please their gods simultaneously.

When sinners look into their own souls or hearts to try to make sense of the image within them, all they can see is an unrecognizable, deformed image. We could liken this experience to a visit to the Fun House with all its many peculiar mirrors. Now, we know that when we look into those mirrors, it is us simply because non one else is around. But at the same time, we don't look anything like ourselves, do we? Our image in the mirrors is totally deformed -- beyond recognition -- BUT...AN image is still there. Yet, it is very far removed from an exact representation of what we actually look like.

Having said all that...there is One Man who existed who bore God's image perfectly. (The operative term is bolded!)

Heb 1:3a
3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,

NIV

(See also 2Cor 4:4; Col 1:15.)

Translate: The image of the Father was PERFECTLY and ACCURATELY and FLAWLESSLY imprinted upon the Son's soul. In other words, it was free from all distortion, corruption, deformities, flaws and imperfections. Now...I'm thinking this certainly helps to explain how Christ was also free from all sin.

But as far as Natural Man goes, we know he cannot not sin. Since this is the case, then just how damaged is God's image upon the souls of the sons of men? Just what happened to Adam's soul when God removed his Spirit from him and he died -- when Adam become free from the Spirit of Life that had been breathed into him on the sixth day? When the Light of Life left him, didn't Adam's soul and heart became darkness itself?



 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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PaulThomson said:
Yes. That is what Paul teaches in Romans 7.
"I was alive without the law once. But when the law came, sin came to life, and I died."



I nte your mere bald assetiona and the total absebxe of any scripyital support for your assertions.
The very condensed explanation is easy to understand. Paul is making a comparison between two experiences he hd. He [thought of himself as being alive] before he understood the commandment about coveting. Then afterwards when he became convicted by the Law, he knew he was nothing more than a dead sinner. Paul is not saying that he was actually alive spiritually.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,841
29,222
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Trusting what one knows doesn't save anyone. Faith has Christ as it's object; not knowledge.
To those who are perishing, the gospel is foolishness anyways. It's not that they don't understand the claims being made in the gospel. They simply reject it. This is fallen man's default position. When someone gets saved it is because God has drawn near and personally introduced Himself.
God came to Adam and Eve directly after their fall. God came and walked with Enoch. God came and spoke to Noah. God came and spoke to Abraham. And God still comes near today and speaks into creation new creations wherein old things pass away and all things become new. His sheep hear His voice.

John 10:27-28
:)