The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[reneweddaybyday]

Nothing changed,just shows you enjoy being a show off

eh ... maybe you're projecting ... maybe it's you who "enjoy being a show off" when you look up the Greek.

me? ... I merely pointed out the error of your claim and it appears you prefer to hold to the error ...

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

the context shows that the every man is the seed of abraham in Vs 16

nope ... proven to you many times ... and God allows you to hold to error.

the context shows that the every man is the seed of abraham in Vs 16 or the many sons in vs 10, and it shows that the many sons He tasted death for, brings them to Glory Heb 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings[unto death].

You flat out deny all of that ! Knowing the greek doesnt help you its just increasing your condemnation.

I do not deny that the Lord Jesus Christ brings the many sons to glory.

What I deny is your insistence that the "every man" (adjective, genitive, singular, masculine) relates to the "many sons" of Heb 2:10 and/or the "seed of Abraham" of Heb 2:16.

Interestingly enough ...

... in Hebrews 2:10, the word "many" is an adjective, accusative, plural masculine.

... in Hebrews 2:10, the word "sons" is a noun, accusative, plural, masculine.


I have shown you why the "every man" does not refer to the "many sons" or the "seed of Abraham" and you reject. God allows you to reject ... however, you will be held accountable and that is on you for you have been shown your error and you are without excuse (Rom 1:20).


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth...
.

 

[brightfame52]

eh ... maybe you're projecting ... maybe it's you who "enjoy being a show off" when you look up the Greek.

me? ... I merely pointed out the error of your claim and it appears you prefer to hold to the error ...

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.





nope ... proven to you many times ... and God allows you to hold to error.





I do not deny that the Lord Jesus Christ brings the many sons to glory.

What I deny is your insistence that the "every man" (adjective, genitive, singular, masculine) relates to the "many sons" of Heb 2:10 and/or the "seed of Abraham" of Heb 2:16.

Interestingly enough ...

... in Hebrews 2:10, the word "many" is an adjective, accusative, plural masculine.

... in Hebrews 2:10, the word "sons" is a noun, accusative, plural, masculine.


I have shown you why the "every man" does not refer to the "many sons" or the "seed of Abraham" and you reject. God allows you to reject ... however, you will be held accountable and that is on you for you have been shown your error and you are without excuse (Rom 1:20).


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth...
.

Nothing changed, you still oppose the Truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hebrews 2:6-8 recites pretty much verbatim what is written in Psalm 8.

If you do not believe Hebrews 2:6-8 is quoting from Psalm 8, then please provide the Scripture you believe Hebrews 2:6-8 is quoted from.

Hello Renew,
I said it was a direct quote from psalm 8, and what I posted is spot on. I thank you for taking the time to try and work the passages. The sources I use are trusted men and no one has proven them wrong.

Your conclusion is not correct for several reasons. God being a Covenant making and Covenant Keeping God.
The bible as well as this passage speaks of the Lord Jesus Christ as Covenant Head of the elect seed of Abraham....not Adam.
I suspect you try and avoid the teaching of particular redemption presented all through this book.
Jesus Covenant death was efficacious for all it was intended. Your suggestion it was designed for all Adams descendants is just not so, or all would be saved.
At the incarnation God revealed in scripture His intention;
lk1:
53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
54 He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Notice Abraham and His seed, not Adam.
Mt.3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Lk1:
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

The book of Hebrews is written to Jews. The Lord Jesus Christ was born to a Jewish family. The Lord Jesus Christ taught in the Jewish temple. The High Priest is a Jewish office ... the sacrifices and offerings referred to in the book of Hebrews are Jewish sacrifices and offerings we read about in the OT.

I like John M as a trusted guide, but his dispensational ideas hamstring him. No one will arrive at truth who holds to that failed system.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I said it was a direct quote from psalm 8, and what I posted is spot on.

Here is what you said:

The quote from psalm 8 is talking about man having Dominion/ not the atonement.

It actual says everyone, not everyman, and vs. 16 defines who among men is in view.

I have provided more than enough proof to support my claim that the Greek word translated into English "every man" is an adjective, genitive, singular, masculine.

Adjectives modify nouns and the noun the adjective modifies must agree in case, number, gender.

I asked you before and I will ask again, what noun in Heb 2:16 is genitive, singular, masculine?

The book of Hebrews is written to Jews. The Lord Jesus Christ was born to a Jewish family. The Lord Jesus Christ taught in the Jewish temple. The High Priest is a Jewish office ... the sacrifices and offerings referred to in the book of Hebrews are Jewish sacrifices and offerings we read about in the OT.

I like John M as a trusted guide

the words you quoted were written by me and I hold to what I stated. The Lord Jesus Christ came to the Jews first. He stated that truth during His ministry on earth. I believe the Book of Hebrews is very "Jewish" in its subject matter.

to provide you with more information (other than MacArthur), please consider the following (bold/underline mine):

Hebrews, as one may guess from the title, is a letter, known as an Epistle, written to the Hebrews, particularly Jewish people who had converted to Christianity during the first century, prior to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.​

​

Because the Jewish audience would have had a rich understanding of Old Testament history, the main purpose of Hebrews is to show how Christ fulfilled prophecies set forth in the Old Testament and to prove the sufficiency of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.​

​

...​

​

There are a few reasons why the author may have written to a Jewish audience in these terms. During the start of the early church, a number of the Jewish converts tried to convince the Gentile converts of Christianity that they needed to be circumcised (Ephesians 2:11). Circumcision, a stumbling block for many converts, had been a Jewish practice when a child was weaned, or when a man converted to the Jewish faith. ​

​

...​

​

Second, the author knows that by using examples from the Old Testament, they can better appeal to the audience. For instance, when Paul talks to a Greek audience, he quotes their philosophers back to them (Acts 17:22-28). And when Stephen talks to a Jewish audience, he uses examples from the Old Testament (Acts 7). ​

​

In the same way, the author tries to use concrete comparisons from the text they would’ve known best, the Old Testament. ​

https://www.biblestudytools.com/bib...es/do-we-actually-know-who-wrote-hebrews.html​

​

​

Much is unknown about the audience of Hebrews. Though it is addressed to both Jewish and Gentile Christians (since it mentions the Gentile Christian leader Timothy), much of the book emphasizes Christianity in relationship to Jewish teachings. The theme of persecution is strong, and the temple sacrificial system appears to still be in practice, indicating a time before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. A likely audience was Jewish converts to Christianity, in Rome, during Nero's persecution of Christians between AD 64 and 68. The most likely date is around AD 67 when some of the persecution had passed and Timothy had been released from prison.​

https://www.bibleref.com/Hebrews/survey-of-Hebrews.html​

​

​

Hebrews was written to a group of Jewish believers who were apparently reverting to the old covenant—their laws and traditions. Without a definite author and specific audience (it is not known which group of Jewish Christians the author is addressing, though some have suggested the Qumran community), it is difficult to determine historical context or even ascertain dates with much specificity.​

https://www.christianity.com/bible/niv/hebrews/​

​

​

Who is the letter to the Hebrews written to?​

The Letter to the Hebrews' intended audience was the Jewish converts to Christianity who were facing persecution due to their lack of participation in the Jewish Temple system. They are encouraged not to return to the old Jewish Covenant but to put their faith in the New Covenant established by Jesus.​

https://study.com/academy/lesson/letter-hebrews-bible-summary-author-purpose.html​

You are free to not believe that the Book of Hebrews was written to a Jewish audience ... I am free to believe the Book of Hebrews was written to a Jewish audience ... and I believe I have provided more than sufficient evidence to show I am not alone in my assertion. Having said that, I also believe the Book of Hebrews is a fantastic source for gentile believers to help us understand the various levitical practices set out in the old covenant entered in to between God and the children of Israel (Jews).

Jesus Covenant death was efficacious for all it was intended.

I believe the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ is more than sufficient to cleanse all the sins of all mankind. However, for those who reject the offering, there is no other offering for them ...

Hebrews 2:1-3 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation ...


There is no escape from the just recompence of reward ... the words "just recompence of reward" are translated from the Greek word misthapodosia which means compensation. The just compensation for transgression and disobedience is judgment.

There is no escape from judgment for those who neglect so great salvation.
.

 

[brightfame52]

@reneweddaybyday

If you do not believe Hebrews 2:6-8 is quoting from Psalm 8, then please provide the Scripture you believe Hebrews 2:6-8 is quoted from.

It is a quote from Ps 8, and there the men are only the elect and the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Iconoclast]

the Syriac version reads, "for God himself through his own grace tasted death for all"; Christ died, not merely as an example,

or barely for the good of men, but as a surety, in their room and stead, and that not for every individual of mankind; for there are some he knows not; for some he does not pray; and there are some who will not be saved: the word "man" is not in the original text, it is only , which may be taken either collectively, and be rendered "for the whole";


that is, the whole body, the church for whom Christ gave himself, and is the Saviour of; or distributively,

and be translated, "for everyone";
for everyone of the sons God brings to glory,
Hebrews 2:10 for everyone of the "brethren",
whom Christ sanctifies, and he is not ashamed to own,
and to whom he declares the name of God,
Hebrews 2:11 for everyone of the members of the "church", in the midst of which he sung praise,
Hebrews 2:12 for every one of the "children" God has given him,
nd for whose sake he took part of flesh and blood, Hebrews 2:13
nd for everyone of the "seed" of Abraham, in a spiritual sense, whose nature he assumed, Hebrews 2:16.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It is a quote from Ps 8

Iconoclast already acknowledged Hebrews 2:6-8 is quoted from Psalm 8.

there the men are only the elect and the Lord Jesus Christ

nope ... Psalm 8 describes the magnificence of creation and tells us the glory of God exceeds the glory of creation (vs 1). David then goes on to proclaim, in considering the vast wonders of creation, what is man ?

Psalm 8:4-6 ... which is repeated in Hebrews 2:6-8 ... both sections of Scripture refer to God having initially created man to have dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26-31).

the term "son of man" in Psalm 8 and in Hebrews 2:6-8 refers to descendants of Adam.

When we read the section in Hebrews 2, this truth is clearly delineated in reading vs 9. Verses 6-8 ... which pretty much quote Psalm 8 verbatim ... refer to Adam and descendants of Adam and the verses end with the statement now we see not yet all things put under him.

Then in vs 9, we read but (in contrast to mankind) we see Jesus ... the Lord Jesus Christ had dominion in His earthly walk. We see that in the reading of the gospels where the winds were stilled ... where water was turned into wine ... where devil spirits proclaimed His authority over them. Even at His death on the cross, He willingly laid down His life. No one killed Him ... He freely gave Himself as an offering and a sacrifice for mankind.

Is it your claim that not all things are put under the Lord Jesus Christ ... that He somehow lacks authority ... that when He walked the earth, He did not have authority over all?


You have again failed in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error!

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

the Syriac version reads, "for God himself through his own grace tasted death for all"; Christ died, not merely as an example,

or barely for the good of men, but as a surety, in their room and stead, and that not for every individual of mankind; for there are some he knows not; for some he does not pray; and there are some who will not be saved: the word "man" is not in the original text, it is only , which may be taken either collectively, and be rendered "for the whole";

really? ... the Syriac version says all that at Hebrews 2:9? ... appears the Syriac version plagiarized John Gill ...

John Gill (23 November 1697 – 14 October 1771) was an English Baptist pastor, biblical scholar, and theologian who held to a firm Calvinistic soteriology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gill_(theologian)
.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast already acknowledged Hebrews 2:6-8 is quoted from Psalm 8.





nope ... Psalm 8 describes the magnificence of creation and tells us the glory of God exceeds the glory of creation (vs 1). David then goes on to proclaim, in considering the vast wonders of creation, what is man ?

Psalm 8:4-6 ... which is repeated in Hebrews 2:6-8 ... both sections of Scripture refer to God having initially created man to have dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26-31).

the term "son of man" in Psalm 8 and in Hebrews 2:6-8 refers to descendants of Adam.

When we read the section in Hebrews 2, this truth is clearly delineated in reading vs 9. Verses 6-8 ... which pretty much quote Psalm 8 verbatim ... refer to Adam and descendants of Adam and the verses end with the statement now we see not yet all things put under him.

Then in vs 9, we read but (in contrast to mankind) we see Jesus ... the Lord Jesus Christ had dominion in His earthly walk. We see that in the reading of the gospels where the winds were stilled ... where water was turned into wine ... where devil spirits proclaimed His authority over them. Even at His death on the cross, He willingly laid down His life. No one killed Him ... He freely gave Himself as an offering and a sacrifice for mankind.

Is it your claim that not all things are put under the Lord Jesus Christ ... that He somehow lacks authority ... that when He walked the earth, He did not have authority over all?


You have again failed in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error!

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

It is redeemed elect men, who Jesus died for, that have been given a renewed dominion on this earth. It is ongoing, not yet complete.
Your failed theology will never arrive at the truth. You believe in a potential salvation, rather than an actual salvation. We who believe in a Covenant Keeping God know that he is doing all of that. You refuse to grasp this whole passage, you cannot understand it at this time.
the Syriac version reads, "for God himself through his own grace tasted death for all"; Christ died, not merely as an example,

or barely for the good of men, but as a surety, in their room and stead, and that not for every individual of mankind; for there are some he knows not; for some he does not pray; and there are some who will not be saved: the word "man" is not in the original text, it is only , which may be taken either collectively, and be rendered "for the whole";


that is, the whole body, the church for whom Christ gave himself, and is the Saviour of; or distributively,

and be translated, "for everyone";
for everyone of the sons God brings to glory,
Hebrews 2:10 for everyone of the "brethren",
whom Christ sanctifies, and he is not ashamed to own,
and to whom he declares the name of God,
Hebrews 2:11 for everyone of the members of the "church", in the midst of which he sung praise,
Hebrews 2:12 for every one of the "children" God has given him,
nd for whose sake he took part of flesh and blood, Hebrews 2:13
nd for everyone of the "seed" of Abraham, in a spiritual sense, whose nature he assumed, Hebrews 2:16.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It is redeemed elect men, who Jesus died for

If they are already redeemed then there is no need for the sacrifice and offering of Lord Jesus Christ ...

You believe in a potential salvation, rather than an actual salvation.

nope ... I believe God's promises never fail and when God says the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Rom 1:16), I believe Him.

the Syriac version reads, "for God himself through his own grace tasted death for all"

please provide the link to the Syriac version. thank you.
.

 

[brightfame52]

Iconoclast already acknowledged Hebrews 2:6-8 is quoted from Psalm 8.





nope ... Psalm 8 describes the magnificence of creation and tells us the glory of God exceeds the glory of creation (vs 1). David then goes on to proclaim, in considering the vast wonders of creation, what is man ?

Psalm 8:4-6 ... which is repeated in Hebrews 2:6-8 ... both sections of Scripture refer to God having initially created man to have dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26-31).

the term "son of man" in Psalm 8 and in Hebrews 2:6-8 refers to descendants of Adam.

When we read the section in Hebrews 2, this truth is clearly delineated in reading vs 9. Verses 6-8 ... which pretty much quote Psalm 8 verbatim ... refer to Adam and descendants of Adam and the verses end with the statement now we see not yet all things put under him.

Then in vs 9, we read but (in contrast to mankind) we see Jesus ... the Lord Jesus Christ had dominion in His earthly walk. We see that in the reading of the gospels where the winds were stilled ... where water was turned into wine ... where devil spirits proclaimed His authority over them. Even at His death on the cross, He willingly laid down His life. No one killed Him ... He freely gave Himself as an offering and a sacrifice for mankind.

Is it your claim that not all things are put under the Lord Jesus Christ ... that He somehow lacks authority ... that when He walked the earth, He did not have authority over all?


You have again failed in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error!

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

Yes Ps 8 is only about Christ and the Elect, not all mankind

 

[Iconoclast]

If they are already redeemed then there is no need for the sacrifice and offering of Lord Jesus Christ ...
The redemption of the elect was planned before the world was created.It was accomplished at the cross

nope ... I believe God's promises never fail and when God says the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Rom 1:16), I believe Him.

Everyone believes this verse. Those elected by God are the only ones who will ever believe.

please provide the link to the Syriac version. thank you.

That quote was offered from John Gill. The problem is not the syriac version or in the greek.
The problem is your failure to show any difference between all mankind, and the seed of Abraham. According to you it is.............all mankind =seed of Abraham.....this is a complete falsehood.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If they are already redeemed then there is no need for the sacrifice and offering of Lord Jesus Christ ...

The redemption of the elect was planned before the world was created.It was accomplished at the cross

The redemption of mankind was planned before the world was created. The sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ is more than sufficient to cover all the sin of all mankind who lived in the past, who live in the present, and who shall live in the future.

I believe God's promises never fail and when God says the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Rom 1:16), I believe Him.

Everyone believes this verse. Those elected by God are the only ones who will ever believe.

Slight adjustment to your stated dogma:

a person is not "elected by God" until he or she believes. You have the cart before the horse.

In your understanding

– God "elected" ...

– God then provides faith to the one He "elected" so that he or she is able to "believe" the gospel of Christ ...

– God withholds faith from the one not "elected" so that he or she is not able to "believe" the gospel of Christ ...

Your understanding is not in alignment with what is stated in Rom 1:18-20 where we read that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse. However, under your scenario, since God withholds something from them so that they cannot under any circumstance believe Rom 1:16, they have an excuse ... yet Scripture tells us they are without excuse.


In my understanding:

– God does not withhold faith from anyone ...

– the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes ...

– those who believe are brought into the fellowship of Jesus Christ our Lord, Who is "the Elect" (capital "E") ...

– at that point, the believer is "elect" (small "e") ...


Those who do not believe the gospel of Christ suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18-20) ... not because they are incapable of believing the gospel, but because they believe something other than the gospel (that which is the power of God unto salvation). They reject God and as a result, they suffer the consequence of having rejected.

Those who believe receive the blessing promised. Prior to believing, they are children of wrath ... not any different than the whole pool of humanity.

The problem is your failure to show any difference between all mankind, and the seed of Abraham.

not true ... I have shown both you and brightfame52 the difference. You both toss it off as if what has been revealed to you does not make a difference.

How many times have I told you that the "everyone" ("every man" in KJV) is an adjective, genitive, singular, masculine?

How many times have I told you that adjectives must agree with the nouns they modify in case, number, gender?

brightfame52 foolishly accuses me of "being a show off with the greek" without realizing that when he presents his understanding of the Greek yet accuses others of something he does himself, all it does is reveal his hypocrisy (Rom 2:1).

According to you it is.............all mankind =seed of Abraham.....this is a complete falsehood.

What is a "complete falsehood" is your claim that I said "all mankind =seed of Abraham".

I have continuously pointed out that "every man" is not seed of Abraham.

You and brightfame52 are the ones who claim that "every man" refers to seed of Abraham.

Go back and read Post 2814. I said the many sons of Heb 2:10 does not refer to every descendant of Adam.

In Post 2825 I clarified that " "the text itself defines the many sons (vs 10) who are brought unto glory as the seed of Abraham" and asked you to provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated "the unsaved people who descend from Adam" are described as the sanctified, brethren many sons, the church, The children which God has given me, the seed of Abraham".

You cannot provide the post because there is no such post. I have stated over and over that the "every man" of Heb 2:9 is not the same as the seed of Abraham.

But you and brightfame52 do not read with clarity because you are trying to conform Scripture to your dogma and that is improper interpretation of Scripture. Then, because of your improper interpretation of Scripture, you accuse me of stating things I never said. Add to that the fact that you re-write what the Author of Scripture has written in your total mishandling of Scripture ...


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.

 

[Magenta]

I see it as ... the condition of a believing person is saved and they are therefore in Christ and not under condemnation while the condition of an unbelieving person is not saved and under condemnation.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein [the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

It is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek = katechō] the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

They are without excuse because God has shown to them that which may be known of God ... but, according to vs 18, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

In vs 18, the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, restrain ... katechō is in the present tense which indicates that ungodly men and women are continually, actively, willfully (active voice), deliberately restraining, hindering and withholding the truth about God. The active voice indicates this is a volitional choice, a choice of their will.

As I have stated many, many times ... God has provided all that mankind needs in order for mankind to come to Him when He reaches out to us ... and I believe God reaches out to each and every person more than once in his or her lifetime. God always makes the first move ...

for those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they reap the blessing and benefit as stated by God

for those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they reap the consequence as stated by God
.

Romans 1:16-17

 

[reneweddaybyday]

so nice, Magenta ...
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[Iconoclast]

The redemption of mankind was planned before the world was created. The sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ is more than sufficient to cover all the sin of all mankind who lived in the past, who live in the present, and who shall live in the future.

Are you saying all mankind is going to be "saved"? We are speaking of saving redemption out from sin and death.
So like we have told you...we are speaking of a redemption that is 100% effective. That is the only salvation the bible has revealed.

Slight adjustment to your stated dogma:

a person is not "elected by God" until he or she believes. You have the cart before the horse.

This betrays a total ignorance of the biblical doctrine.
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

In your understanding

– God "elected" ...

– God then provides faith to the one He "elected" so that he or she is able to "believe" the gospel of Christ ...

– God withholds faith from the one not "elected" so that he or she is not able to "believe" the gospel of Christ ...

God passes by the non elect letting them have what they desire. Learn the real teaching before you try and be critical. 1689;
PARAGRAPH 3
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of His glorious grace;8
others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.9


7 1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:34
8 Eph. 1:5–6
9 Rom. 9:22–23; Jude 4

Your understanding is not in alignment with what is stated in Rom 1:18-20 where we read that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse. However, under your scenario, since God withholds something from them so that they cannot under any circumstance believe Rom 1:16, they have an excuse ... yet Scripture tells us they are without excuse.

Are you reading the false teachings of Leighton F? He is not at all credible. God does not withold anything, because He is not obligated to save every person ever born. He owns the rights to all men.

In my understanding:

– God does not withhold faith from anyone ...

Natural men do not have saving faith, God must grant it to those He saves.

– the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes ...

– those who believe are brought into the fellowship of Jesus Christ our Lord, Who is "the Elect" (capital "E") ...

– at that point, the believer is "elect" (small "e") ...

This is too foolish to respond to. Men do not "elect" themselves. Friend this is lame. Delete it before anyone sees you posted such trash.

Those who do not believe the gospel of Christ suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18-20)

.

Agreed...they are truth suppressors by being born in Adam.

.. not because they are incapable of believing the gospel, but because they believe something other than the gospel (that which is the power of God unto salvation). They reject God and as a result, they suffer the consequence of having rejected.

The fall has left men as unable to welcome the truth of God. Your theology has a false base....sand. You deny clear scripture and try to to substitute your man centered ideas.

Those who believe receive the blessing promised. Prior to believing, they are children of wrath ... not any different than the whole pool of humanity.

Man centered, no gospel here. Salvation is from God, not man saving himself.

What is a "complete falsehood" is your claim that I said "all mankind =seed of Abraham".

I have continuously pointed out that "every man" is not seed of Abraham.

All believers are the seed of Abraham. Learn your bible rather than falsely dividing and fragmenting the scripture

Look again;
Gal.3
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In Post 2825 I clarified that " "the text itself defines the many sons (vs 10) who are brought unto glory as the seed of Abraham" and asked you to provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated "the unsaved people who descend from Adam" are described as the sanctified, brethren many sons, the church, The children which God has given me, the seed of Abraham".

Not all descendants of Adam, are Seed of Abraham. Only the elect are. I told you that was your position, but look at what you just posted. Only the seed of Abraham are found In Christ. Those who remain in Adam, die and go into second death. 1cor15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

You cannot provide the post because there is no such post. I have stated over and over that the "every man" of Heb 2:9 is not the same as the seed of Abraham.

When you claim all mankind is redeemed. you are saying that very thing.

 

[Magenta]

so nice, Magenta ...
.

Thank You! God Bless You

 

[brightfame52]

The sins of Gods sheep/elect,chosen were charged to Christ and they became His, so God punished Christ for their sins, the sins they committed that earned them the wages of death, even eternal death Rom 6:23a.

So Christ paid the full debt they owed to Gods law and justice so that they have in and through Him the forgiveness of sins, through His Blood Col 1:14

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Thats Salvation Lk 1:77

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, 62

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Are you saying all mankind is going to be "saved"?

No. I have never stated "all mankind is going to be "saved" ".

a person is not "elected by God" until he or she believes. You have the cart before the horse.

This betrays a total ignorance of the biblical doctrine.

nope ... not when it comes to the verse we were discussing (Rom 1:16), Scripture tells us the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

according to you, a person believes because he or she is saved.

according to Scripture, a person is saved because he or she believes.

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

those who reject God's grace in Christ Jesus do not partake of God's grace in Christ Jesus ...

letting them have what they desire.

yes

PARAGRAPH 3
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,7 to the praise of His glorious grace;8
others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.9

The Confession of Faith (1689), also known as the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith,[1][2] or the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith (to distinguish it from the 1644 London Baptist Confession of Faith), is a Particular Baptist confession of faith. It was written by English Baptists who subscribed to a Calvinistic soteriology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession_of_Faith_(1689) (bold mine)

In my understanding:

– God does not withhold faith from anyone ...

Natural men do not have saving faith, God must grant it to those He saves.

natural man does have "faith". Your addition of "saving" to "faith" is a byproduct of your dogma ... click.

The issue is not "do you have faith" ... the issue is in Whom do you have faith.

A person can "believe" a lie and not be saved ... or

A person can "believe" the truth.

It is not faith that saves ... it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes ...

Your understanding is not in alignment with what is stated in Rom 1:18-20 where we read that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness are without excuse. However, under your scenario, since God withholds something from them so that they cannot under any circumstance believe Rom 1:16, they have an excuse ... yet Scripture tells us they are without excuse.

Are you reading the false teachings of Leighton F?

Never heard of Leighton F.

In my understanding:

– God does not withhold faith from anyone ...

Natural men do not have saving faith, God must grant it to those He saves.

Just prior to what you claim here, you claimed:

"God does not withold anything"

So on the one hand, God does not withhold anything ...

On the other hand, God must "grant" saving faith to those He saves

In effect, you believe God does not "grant" what is needed to come to faith in Christ to those "He is not obligated to save".

Those who do not come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are the ones described in Rom 1:18-21 (those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... so they are without excuse). Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness reject God and God is "not obligated to save" those who reject Him.

Those who come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are those who trust/believe what they hear when someone preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ. God then brings increase to them. God is the One Who brings to fruition the promise. God is the Promiser and He absolutely will bring to pass that which He promises ... and He promises salvation to those who believe.

– the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes ...

– those who believe are brought into the fellowship of Jesus Christ our Lord, Who is "the Elect" (capital "E") ...

– at that point, the believer is "elect" (small "e") ...

This is too foolish to respond to. Men do not "elect" themselves.

... I didn't say "Men "elect" themselves" ... your assertion is just another example of you claiming I said something I never said.

What is a "complete falsehood" is your claim that I said "all mankind =seed of Abraham".

I have continuously pointed out that "every man" is not seed of Abraham.

All believers are the seed of Abraham. Learn your bible rather than falsely dividing and fragmenting the scripture

... the "every man" of Hebrews 2:9 is comprised of believers and unbelievers.

The "many sons" of Hebrews 2:10 are believers.

I never said the "every man" = seed of Abraham and I have continuously denied ever having said that ... notwithstanding your claim that I said what I did not say.

In Post 2825 I clarified that " "the text itself defines the many sons (vs 10) who are brought unto glory as the seed of Abraham" and asked you to provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated "the unsaved people who descend from Adam" are described as the sanctified, brethren many sons, the church, The children which God has given me, the seed of Abraham".

You cannot provide the post because there is no such post. I have stated over and over that the "every man" of Heb 2:9 is not the same as the seed of Abraham.

When you claim all mankind is redeemed. you are saying that very thing.

... another "complete falsehood" on your part.

please provide the post submitted by me wherein I claimed:

"all mankind =seed of Abraham"

"all mankind is redeemed"

You will not be able to provide the post(s) because I never said what you claim ... but that will not stop you from claiming I said something I never said.
.

 

[Iconoclast]

You posted this;

Scripture is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world ... all descendants of Adam ...