More opposing the Truthfirst of all, every descendant of Adam is born "spiritually blind" so your "elect" are included in the whole of the pool of humanity before birth and at birth.
secondly, the only thing that will open "spiritually blind eyes" is for descendants of Adam to believe in God's provision for sin ... the Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
... many saw Him and did not believe so your claim here is false.
only those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are saved ... as it is written, the just shall live by faith
Romans 1:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein [the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
.
The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Then you reading into the text that which isnt there. Context shows us that the every one is Identified as the seed of Abraham He tasted death for, everyone of them Heb 2:16-17
More opposing the Gospel Truth of what Christs Death did accomplish.From Barnes' Notes on the Bible:
To open the blind eyes - This is equivalent to saying that he would impart instruction to those who were ignorant. It relates to the Jews as well as to the Gentiles. He would acquaint them with God, and with the way of salvation. The condition of the world is often represented as one of darkness and blindness. Men see not their true character; they see not their real condition; they are ignorant of God, and of the truths pertaining to their future existence; and they need, therefore, some one who shall enlighten, and sanctify, and save them.To bring out the prisoners from the prison - (Compare Isaiah 61:1-2). This evidently refers to a spiritual deliverance, though the language is derived from deliverance from a prison. It denotes that he would rescue those who were confined in mental darkness by sin; and that their deliverance from the thraldom and darkness of sin would be as wonderful as if a prisoner should be delivered suddenly from a dark cell, and be permitted to go forth and breathe the pure air of freedom. Such is the freedom which the gospel imparts; nor can there be a more striking description of its happy effects on the minds and hearts of darkened and wretched people (compare 1 Peter 2:9).
The Lord Jesus Christ healed physical blindness as well ... that was one of the "signs" to the children of Israel that He was Messiah.
While John Baptist was in prison and before John was beheaded (Matt 14:1-12), he sent disciples to Jesus to ask if He was Messiah:
Matthew 11:
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
Those who are not offended in the Lord Jesus Christ receive the blessing promised in God's Word.
please note that Romans 10:10 states a person believes ... then righteousness follows.
Here is Romans 10:10 from the Amplified version:
For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.
Romans 6:
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
.
More opposition to the Truth.again, the prison from which the born again ones are delivered is sin.
unbelief is due either to (1) ignorance or (2) rejection.
ignorance is due to not having heard the Word of God at all or not having been taught the rightly divided Word of God.
rejection of the truth of God's Word is due to the hearer rejecting the truth of the rightly divided Word of God ... iow, the one who rejects the truth suppresses the truth in unrighteousness as shown in Rom 1:18.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness
The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress; hold back; restrain. When the Word of God is spoken, the hearer restrains the truth from reaching his/her heart.
Steven Cole - Stand in Awe:
Paul is not saying (in 11:32) that God will save everyone. Rather, in the context Paul is looking at the broad sweep of history and God’s dealings with the Gentiles and the Jews as groups. He is saying that just as both groups were at various times cut off from God’s mercy because of their disobedience, so both groups will experience His mercy as history unfolds. This does not imply that every individual in each group will be saved, which would contradict what Paul says elsewhere, that some will come under eternal condemnation (2 Thess. 1:9; 2:12). So “mercy to all” means that just as God is now pouring out His mercy on the Gentiles as a group, so in the future He will pour out His mercy on the Jews as a group. He has designed and He controls all of history to display the glory of His mercy to sinners.
In Luke 17, there is a record wherein Jesus healed ten lepers who begged Him for mercy:
Luke 17:
11 And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.
12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
The Lord Jesus Christ showed mercy on all ten men ... all ten men were cleansed of their leprosy.
However, only one was made whole through his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
your erroneous dogma is blasphemous ...
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
The "every man" of Hebrews 2:9 refers to what is written in Hebrews 2:6-8. Hebrews 2:6-8 is quoted from Psalm 8:
Psalm 8:
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet
Hebrews 2:
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
The verses in Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2:6-8 refer to God having created, formed, made mankind to have dominion over all the earth. Hebrews 2:8 clarifies that now we see not yet all things put under him (mankind).
Then Hebrews 2:9 tells us that the Lord Jesus Christ is crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
So let's look at the words "man", "him", "son of man", "his", and "every man" as shown in Hebrews 2:6-9
vs 6:
– man (noun, nominative, singular, masculine)
– him (pronoun, genitive, singular, masculine)
– son of man (noun, genitive, singular, masculine)
vs 7:
– him (pronoun, accusative, singular, masculine)
vs 8:
– his (pronoun, genitive, singular, masculine)
– feet (noun, genitive, plural, masculine)
– him (pronoun, dative, singular, masculine)
vs 9:
– every man (adjective, genitive, singular, masculine)
An adjective is a word that describes a person(s), place(s), or thing(s). Within a sentence, an adjective usually describes a noun.
Adjectives
· can be masculine, feminine, or neuter
· agree with the noun they modify in number, case and gender
· are declined in similar fashion as nouns
All of the references in Heb 2:6-9 are singular, masculine ... and adjectives must agree with nouns in number, case, and gender.Now, look at Hebrews 2:10:
Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
"many" is adjective, accusative, plural, masculine and
"sons" is noun, accusative, plural, masculine.
Clearly, the "every man" (adjective, genitive, singular, masculine) of Hebrews 2:9 is not speaking of the "many sons" (accusative, plural, masculine) of Hebrews 2:10.
The "every man" of Hebrews 2:9 relates back to the "him" and "son of man" in Hebrews 2:6 ... which is speaking of Adam ("man") and the progeny of Adam ("son of man"):
Hebrews 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him [genitive, singular, masculine]? or the son of man [genitive, singular, masculine], that thou visitest him?
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man [genitive, singular, masculine].
Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.brightfame52 said:
"the seed" = noun, genitive, singular, neuter
"Abraham" = Indeclinable Proper Noun [A proper noun in a highly inflected language having no inflections]
Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
"brethren" = noun, dative, plural, masculine
"people" = noun, genitive, singular, masculine
you have again failed in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.
You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.
you still reading into the text that which isnt there and ignoring that which is there throughout the context.
The quote from psalm 8 is talking about man having Dominion/ not the atonement.
It actual says everyone, not everyman, and vs. 16 defines who among men is in view.
SO THAT BY THE GRACE OF GOD HE MIGHT TASTE DEATH FOR EVERYONE: hopos chariti theou huper pantos geusetai (3SAMS) thanatou:
Hebrews 2:16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. (NASB: Lockman)
Vine - He passed angels by and He lays hold, not of the seed of Adam, the whole human race, but of the seed of Abraham, that is, of those who believe on Him, sharing Abraham’s faith. He lays hold of them (1) to deliver them, Heb 2:15, (2) to keep them, Heb 2:18.
It actual says everyone, not everyman, and vs. 16 defines who among men is in view.
SO THAT BY THE GRACE OF GOD HE MIGHT TASTE DEATH FOR EVERYONE: hopos chariti theou huper pantos geusetai (3SAMS) thanatou:
Hebrews 2:16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. (NASB: Lockman)
Greek: ou gar depou aggelon epilambanetai, (3SPMI) alla spermatos Abraam epilambanetai. (3SPMI)
Amplified: For, as we all know, He [Christ] did not take hold of angels the fallen angels, to give them a helping and delivering hand], but He did take hold of the fallen] descendants of Abraham [to reach out to them a helping and delivering hand]. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
Analyzed Literal: For surely He does not take hold of [fig., give aid to] angels, _but_ He takes hold of [fig., gives aid to] [the] seed of Abraham.
Barclay: For I presume that it is not angels that helps; but it is the seed of Abraham that he helps. (Westminster Press)
NLT: We all know that Jesus came to help the descendants of Abraham, not to help the angels (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: It is plain that for this purpose he did not become an angel; he became a man, in actual fact a descendant of Abraham. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: For, as is well known, He does not take hold of angels for the purpose of helping them, but of the seed of Abraham He takes hold, with a view to succoring them.
Young's Literal: for, doubtless, of messengers it doth not lay hold, but of seed of Abraham it layeth hold,
Amplified: For, as we all know, He [Christ] did not take hold of angels the fallen angels, to give them a helping and delivering hand], but He did take hold of the fallen] descendants of Abraham [to reach out to them a helping and delivering hand]. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
Analyzed Literal: For surely He does not take hold of [fig., give aid to] angels, _but_ He takes hold of [fig., gives aid to] [the] seed of Abraham.
Barclay: For I presume that it is not angels that helps; but it is the seed of Abraham that he helps. (Westminster Press)
NLT: We all know that Jesus came to help the descendants of Abraham, not to help the angels (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: It is plain that for this purpose he did not become an angel; he became a man, in actual fact a descendant of Abraham. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: For, as is well known, He does not take hold of angels for the purpose of helping them, but of the seed of Abraham He takes hold, with a view to succoring them.
Young's Literal: for, doubtless, of messengers it doth not lay hold, but of seed of Abraham it layeth hold,
Vine - He passed angels by and He lays hold, not of the seed of Adam, the whole human race, but of the seed of Abraham, that is, of those who believe on Him, sharing Abraham’s faith. He lays hold of them (1) to deliver them, Heb 2:15, (2) to keep them, Heb 2:18.
Christ by His vicarious death achieved Salvation. When He suffered and died for the sins of all those given Him of His Father, the Elect,
He bare their sins in His body 1 Pet 2:24, hence His death brings them to God 1 Pet 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Thats Salvation being brought to God BY HIM Heb 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
How do they come to God BY HIm ? 1 Pet 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh !
He bare their sins in His body 1 Pet 2:24, hence His death brings them to God 1 Pet 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Thats Salvation being brought to God BY HIM Heb 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
How do they come to God BY HIm ? 1 Pet 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh !
Amen,its plain to see to them who have eyes to see, the context plainly points out who the every man is. Also Christ tasted death for every sheep,hence in the !3th Chapter it reads He was brought from the Dead as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep,hence therefore He died, tasted death as the Shepherd of the Sheep as stated in Jn 10 Heb 13:20
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Hello BF,
Yes for sure. God has an eternal plan, that is unfolding as we post here. People seem obsessed with resisting the biblical teaching at every turn. We are told in scripture that the natural man....CANNOT welcome or receive the things of God. I know we both believe that.
What I puzzle over more, is those who profess to be believers who are not open to search the truth out.We should all be about truth..
@Iconoclast
Im afraid this is the problem 2 Thess 2 11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Im afraid this is the problem 2 Thess 2 11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Hebrews 2:6-8 recites pretty much verbatim what is written in Psalm 8.
If you do not believe Hebrews 2:6-8 is quoting from Psalm 8, then please provide the Scripture you believe Hebrews 2:6-8 is quoted from.
In Hebrews 2:9 the Greek word translated into English "everyone" is an adjective, genitive, singular, masculine.Iconoclast said:
Adjectives relate to nouns and adjectives agree with the noun they modify in number, case and gender.
In Hebrews 2:16, what noun is genitive, singular, masculine?
In Hebrews 2:9, the Greek word that is translated into our English word "everyone" ("every man" in KJV) is pantos ... which is an adjective, genitive, singular, masculine.Iconoclast said:
The book of Hebrews is written to Jews. The Lord Jesus Christ was born to a Jewish family. The Lord Jesus Christ taught in the Jewish temple. The High Priest is a Jewish office ... the sacrifices and offerings referred to in the book of Hebrews are Jewish sacrifices and offerings we read about in the OT.Iconoclast said:
From MacArthur's Introduction to Hebrews (bold/underline mine):
A proper interpretation of this epistle requires the recognition that it addresses 3 distinct groups of Jews: 1) believers; 2) unbelievers who were intellectually convinced of the gospel; and 3) unbelievers who were attracted by the gospel and the person of Christ but who had reached no final conviction about Him. Failure to acknowledge these groups leads to interpretations inconsistent with the rest of Scripture.
The primary group addressed were Hebrew Christians who suffered rejection and persecution by fellow Jews (10:32–34), although none as yet had been martyred (12:4). The letter was written to give them encouragement and confidence in Christ, their Messiah and High-Priest. They were an immature group of believers who were tempted to hold on to the symbolic and spiritually powerless rituals and traditions of Judaism.
The second group addressed were Jewish unbelievers who were convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who had not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as their own Savior and Lord. They were intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted. These unbelievers are addressed in such passages as 2:1–3; 6:4–6; 10:26–29; and 12:15–17.
The third group addressed were Jewish unbelievers who were not convinced of the gospel’s truth but had had some exposure to it. Chapter 9 is largely devoted to them (see especially vv. 11,14,15,27,28).
Compare what is written in Hebrews 2:16-17 (written to Jews) with what is written in Philippians 2:6-8 (written to gentiles).
In Philippians 2, the Author of Scripture does not state that the Lord Jesus Christ was found in fashion as Abraham because the gentiles would not have the understanding a Jewish person has concerning Abraham.
So in Phil 2, the Author of Scripture states the Lord Jesus Christ was made in the likeness of men (vs 7) and was found in fashion as a man (vs 8).
.
the "Elect" (capital "E") is the Lord Jesus Christ. Is it your claim that the Lord Jesus Christ sinned?
clickbrightfame52 said:
.
some even go so far as to bend the rules of grammar in their futile attempt to align Scripture to their dogma.
example: claiming that an adjective which is genitive, singular, masculine refers to a noun which is not genitive, singular, masculine.
Adjectives...
· can be masculine, feminine, or neuter
· agree with the noun they modify in number, case and gender
· are declined in similar fashion as nouns
exactly ...Iconoclast said:
Read the next verse brightfame52:
2 Thessalonians 2:
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Those who believe the lie rejected the truth because they had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Verse 12 does not state that they could not believe the truth. The verse clearly states they refused to believe the truth ... they suppressed the truth in unrighteousness because of the temporary pleasure they received. They chose the pleasure in unrighteousness over the truth.
A view of God's response to the followers of the man of lawlessness (2 Th 2:11)
- For this reason = because they chose falsehood and rejected the truth.
- This is a judicial act of God who gives the wicked over to the evil which they have deliberately chosen (see Rom 1:24-32).
- God will send = To those who continually reject the truth, God will send an active power of misleading. This is reminiscent of the evil spirit from the Lord who terrorized Saul (1 Sa 16:14-23; 18:10; 19:9), and the spirit of falsehood sent by God in 1 Kg 22:20-22.
- There is a progressive downward trend:
1. They reject the love of the truth.
2. God gives them over to Satan's delusions.
3. They actually put their faith in these falsehoods (see 2 Th 2:9).
What is the result of this progression? (2 Th 2:12)
- This simply expresses the natural result of their downward progression. This passage cannot be used to say that God predestines some people to damnation. It merely states that the logical outcome of their rejection of the truth is their condemnation.
- Why are they being condemned? Because they did not believe the truth -- they did not exercise saving faith in the true gospel. Instead they chose to exercise their faith, trust, & reliance in what was false and produced unrighteousness.
- They took pleasure (eudokeo) in unrighteousness = it "seemed good" to them; they preferred wickedness and were strongly inclined toward it.
© 2004 by Steve Lewis
High Peaks Bible Fellowship
.You have been shown the context by myself and that poster, you just cant see the truth.
I will ask you the same question I asked Iconoclast:
In Hebrews 2:9 the Greek word translated into English "everyone" is an adjective, genitive, singular, masculine.
Adjectives relate to nouns and adjectives agree with the noun they modify in number, case and gender.
In Hebrews 2:16, what noun is genitive, singular, masculine?
.
None, but it doesnt change nothing, the everyone in Heb 2:9 is the "seed of Abraham"Heb 2:16
Its equivalent to all the seed Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, παντὶ τῷ σπέρματι
So your exercise here proves nothing except that you like to show off with the greek and its fruitless. The context of Heb 2:9 shows who the everyone is, in Heb 2:15 its the seed of Abraham, and all mankind isnt of the seed of Abraham.
right ... so quit claiming that the adjective in Hebrews 2:9 refers to nouns in Hebrews 2:16.
I have shown you that is error ... you have now agreed there is no noun which is genitive, singular masculine in Heb 2:16 ...brightfame52 said:
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
what are you going to do with your error? Are you going to hold to error? ... or are you going to let it go and hold to that which is good?
brightfame52 said:
... when you look up Greek words, do you do it because you "like to show off with the greek" ?here's what you're doing brightfame52:brightfame52 said:
you know the “every man” in Heb 2:9 is an adjective, genitive, singular, masculine;
you know that adjectives relate to nouns and adjectives agree with the nouns they modify;
you know there is no noun in Heb 2:16 that is genitive, singular, masculine;
none of that matters because brightfame52 does not hold to what the Author of Scripture has written ... brightfame52 rewrites Scripture so that what the Author of Scripture has written conforms to his dogma.
got it : |
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.
Nothing changed,just shows you enjoy being a show off, the context shows that the every man is the seed of abraham in Vs 16 or the many sons in vs 10, and it shows that the many sons He tasted death for, brings them to Glory Heb 2:10right ... so quit claiming that the adjective in Hebrews 2:9 refers to nouns in Hebrews 2:16.
I have shown you that is error ... you have now agreed there is no noun which is genitive, singular masculine in Heb 2:16 ...
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
what are you going to do with your error? Are you going to hold to error? ... or are you going to let it go and hold to that which is good?
here's what you're doing brightfame52:
you know the “every man” in Heb 2:9 is an adjective, genitive, singular, masculine;
you know that adjectives relate to nouns and adjectives agree with the nouns they modify;
you know there is no noun in Heb 2:16 that is genitive, singular, masculine;
none of that matters because brightfame52 does not hold to what the Author of Scripture has written ... brightfame52 rewrites Scripture so that what the Author of Scripture has written conforms to his dogma.
got it : |
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings[unto death].
You flat out deny all of that ! Knowing the greek doesnt help you its just increasing your condemnation.