What if you die before water baptism?
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Please..... Some need to stop and see something that was not fully grasped when the Church age began at Pentecost.
It was only understood later on...
They had just come out of a dispensation when believers were water baptized, and it was all they knew.
Please... look and see what was to change and to be all new to their thinking.
After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs
that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about
the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them
this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised,
which you have heard me speak about.
Now note...
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 1:3-5
There was a change coming. One that they did not immediately adjust to. For.. In all their excitement at Pentecost
they just kept doing as they had while living in the Jewish age.
Peter without hesitation continued in the mode of thinking 'water baptism.'
Ten chapters later, Peter finally had it sink in when remembered the words spoken by Jesus about water baptism
to be changed to the new baptism!
All the while Peter was commanding water baptisms he had no recalled what Jesus had told him
just before Pentecost!!!!! Prior to that, the disciples of Jesus had been water baptizing more people
than ever John the Baptist! So Peter was only doing what he had been ingrained with doing by Jesus.
Then! Jesus ascended and was glorified! EVERYTHING CHANGED!
Spirit baptism is to replace water.
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
That's the problem the church has been having when it stops at one verse and does not learn more that would be needed.
Yes... many in the church have been missing something for a long time.
Read those verses again if need be, please.
grace and peace ......
It was only understood later on...
They had just come out of a dispensation when believers were water baptized, and it was all they knew.
Please... look and see what was to change and to be all new to their thinking.
After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs
that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about
the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them
this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised,
which you have heard me speak about.
Now note...
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 1:3-5
There was a change coming. One that they did not immediately adjust to. For.. In all their excitement at Pentecost
they just kept doing as they had while living in the Jewish age.
Peter without hesitation continued in the mode of thinking 'water baptism.'
Ten chapters later, Peter finally had it sink in when remembered the words spoken by Jesus about water baptism
to be changed to the new baptism!
Acts 11:15-17
“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
All the while Peter was commanding water baptisms he had no recalled what Jesus had told him
just before Pentecost!!!!! Prior to that, the disciples of Jesus had been water baptizing more people
than ever John the Baptist! So Peter was only doing what he had been ingrained with doing by Jesus.
Then! Jesus ascended and was glorified! EVERYTHING CHANGED!
Spirit baptism is to replace water.
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
That's the problem the church has been having when it stops at one verse and does not learn more that would be needed.
Acts 11:15-17
“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
Yes... many in the church have been missing something for a long time.
Read those verses again if need be, please.
grace and peace ......
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Your statement is not consistent with scripture, which clearly tells you when you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It can't get any plainer.
Acts 2:38
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I Agree!!! John 20:22 is clearly when the Holy Spirit indwelled the Disciples. The only theological "work around" would be a belief that God/Jesus BREATHING on them meant nothing.
Jesus words were "Endued with power". An Enduement isn't an "Indwelling" at all.. It's a "Clothing with".
So in short:
John 20:22 = The Holy Spirit IN the Disciples.
Act 2:4 = the Holy Spirit UPON the Disciples.
Jesus words were "Endued with power". An Enduement isn't an "Indwelling" at all.. It's a "Clothing with".
So in short:
John 20:22 = The Holy Spirit IN the Disciples.
Act 2:4 = the Holy Spirit UPON the Disciples.
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I don't understand the point you're making here. Are you saying there are 2 types of being saved? Are you saying we are not indwelt (reconnected to God by our resurrected spirit being reconciled to His Holy Spirit making us NEW creations) by His Spirit when we are born again/saved/baptized in the Holy Spirit? It seems like your saying that this is not a permanent thing, or that sometimes it is and sometimes it's not.
I can't really nail down exactly what you're trying to say and before I comment and say something about it I want to make sure that I'm understanding what you're truly trying to say here. (I seem to be on a roll making comments that are actually addressing my misunderstanding of what the people are actually trying to say, and I want to break that streak)
I can't really nail down exactly what you're trying to say and before I comment and say something about it I want to make sure that I'm understanding what you're truly trying to say here. (I seem to be on a roll making comments that are actually addressing my misunderstanding of what the people are actually trying to say, and I want to break that streak)
Hypothetical situations were used in an attempt to negate the message of Jesus in the New Testament also.
The Sadducees tried it in Mark 12
Marriage at the Resurrection
18 Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 19 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married and died without leaving any children. 21 The second one married the widow, but he also died, leaving no child. It was the same with the third. 22 In fact, none of the seven left any children. Last of all, the woman died too. 23 At the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"
24 Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
What if scenarios are a terrible way to build a theology!
The Sadducees tried it in Mark 12
Marriage at the Resurrection
18 Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 19 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married and died without leaving any children. 21 The second one married the widow, but he also died, leaving no child. It was the same with the third. 22 In fact, none of the seven left any children. Last of all, the woman died too. 23 At the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"
24 Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
What if scenarios are a terrible way to build a theology!
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!
What the BIBLE SAYS, is that the Holy Spirit indwelling the Disciples was ministered TO THEM when Jesus "Breathed on them" in John 20:22. From that point on, the Disciples were "Born again" and were Christians.
Acts 2:4 has nothing to do with anybody "being Saved", or being "Born Again". it's the point in time when the Holy Spirit CAME UPON (externally) the disciples who had been indwelled by the Holy Spirit since John 20:22.
Same goes for us in 2024. when we are Born Again by FAITH in Jesus' "SIN OFFERING" (Eph 2:8,9) and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, then we're Christians.
And thereafter, we can ask for what "Pentecostals" call "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit", which is essentially the Acts 2:4 experience which has nothing to do with "Salvation", but only inviting the presence of the Holy Spirit UPON you to give you power in ministry.
In MY case, it immediately propelled me into intense Bible teaching among home groups, churches including Roman Catholics. And incidentally I also spoke in tongues, and was burdened to Interpret when others spoke in tongues.
What the BIBLE SAYS, is that the Holy Spirit indwelling the Disciples was ministered TO THEM when Jesus "Breathed on them" in John 20:22. From that point on, the Disciples were "Born again" and were Christians.
Acts 2:4 has nothing to do with anybody "being Saved", or being "Born Again". it's the point in time when the Holy Spirit CAME UPON (externally) the disciples who had been indwelled by the Holy Spirit since John 20:22.
Same goes for us in 2024. when we are Born Again by FAITH in Jesus' "SIN OFFERING" (Eph 2:8,9) and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, then we're Christians.
And thereafter, we can ask for what "Pentecostals" call "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit", which is essentially the Acts 2:4 experience which has nothing to do with "Salvation", but only inviting the presence of the Holy Spirit UPON you to give you power in ministry.
In MY case, it immediately propelled me into intense Bible teaching among home groups, churches including Roman Catholics. And incidentally I also spoke in tongues, and was burdened to Interpret when others spoke in tongues.
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Look, it’s important to not get inflexible with this too much. The fact is, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate thing from salvation, however some people receive both at the same time with evidence of speaking in tongues. Peter and the other apostles received the Baptism of Holy Spirit in the upper room, yet there were saved before.
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Not a biggie but my texts say 'in one place'.
Acts 2:1 NKJV
When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Acts 2:1 NET
Now when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
Acts 2:1 ESV
When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place.
etc.
Acts 2:1 NKJV
When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Acts 2:1 NET
Now when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
Acts 2:1 ESV
When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place.
etc.
Yep. I was also in a place where a pastor and several other men laid hands and prayed over me. I began to detect little phrases that I didn’t understand. I had the thought “If you say that they will know you are faking” But I decided to do it anyway and man, it was like a flood. I was so fired up, that I could not sit still at work. I almost couldn’t contain myself. It was a life changing moment. Other people have had similar experiences as mine but others have had different ones. One lady said she was driving along and all the sudden she heard herself singing in tongues.
I believe the best answer is the one Jesus gave Peter in John 22:23. Peter asked Jesus “what are you going to do about John?” The same as the question—what about the person who……(gets killed on the way to baptism; ls on an island; on his deathbed, etc). Jesus said, “ WHAT IS THAT TO YOU!? YOU FOLLOW ME.” What Jesus does with John was none of their business. He is the Son of God. He will decide what to do with John, just like He will decide what to do with any imaginary, hypothetical situation that we can come up with. We cannot presume to speak for God. So the answer from Jesus to His disciples was:
(1). Stay out of my business. This doesn’t concern YOU.
(2). You just make sure YOU do what you know to do. Ignorance is no longer an excuse. Everyone has a Bible and everyone has 1000’s of opportunities to obey what it says in their lifetime. Worry about yourself! God will decide about those who have not done His will.
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Okay thank you for clearing that up and doing so straight forward.
I completely disagree with you and believe it's you that makes this distinction between the saved and then getting a power up every now and then when you "call down His Spirit" or whatever you think baptism of the Holy Spirit is. This idea the His Spirit is something we call down and it comes and goes is just not at all what His word and my experience tells me. You are making different classes of Christians here and have come up with some convoluted kind of Christians that are in different classes, have some weird authority to CALL DOWN His Spirit sometimes and all these other distinctions between some believers vs others.
I have heard this before and kind of follow how you're trying to fit it to scripture, but this is wrong and just is not what His word says.
I know this isn't going to seem "nice", and I hope you just hear me out and not take is as me just being insulting, but this is the kind of mistake and false teaching I would only think someone that has not been born again in truth would teach.
You really don't think God pouring His Spirit out on men through the blood of Jesus Christ on Pentecost in Acts 2 was these men being saved. You understand this can only happen After we are granted repentance and our spirits are made new. Before this day it hadn't happen this way. God's Spirit would come upon men and leave as He saw fit before Jesus, but on this day was the beginning of the new age and now His Spirit can dwell in us. That's how these men took His way back to all the places they were from. This is EXACTLY what happens when we are born again, the fact you don't seem to understand this and teach that there are different "types" of Holy Spirit for different types if Christian setups is NOT what any of the scripture you've referenced are talking about.
I completely disagree with you and believe it's you that makes this distinction between the saved and then getting a power up every now and then when you "call down His Spirit" or whatever you think baptism of the Holy Spirit is. This idea the His Spirit is something we call down and it comes and goes is just not at all what His word and my experience tells me. You are making different classes of Christians here and have come up with some convoluted kind of Christians that are in different classes, have some weird authority to CALL DOWN His Spirit sometimes and all these other distinctions between some believers vs others.
I have heard this before and kind of follow how you're trying to fit it to scripture, but this is wrong and just is not what His word says.
I know this isn't going to seem "nice", and I hope you just hear me out and not take is as me just being insulting, but this is the kind of mistake and false teaching I would only think someone that has not been born again in truth would teach.
You really don't think God pouring His Spirit out on men through the blood of Jesus Christ on Pentecost in Acts 2 was these men being saved. You understand this can only happen After we are granted repentance and our spirits are made new. Before this day it hadn't happen this way. God's Spirit would come upon men and leave as He saw fit before Jesus, but on this day was the beginning of the new age and now His Spirit can dwell in us. That's how these men took His way back to all the places they were from. This is EXACTLY what happens when we are born again, the fact you don't seem to understand this and teach that there are different "types" of Holy Spirit for different types if Christian setups is NOT what any of the scripture you've referenced are talking about.
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