The tree of knowledge of good and evil

[Mem]

he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11:25

A closer look at the grammar rules used here is warranted since this seems to be the point of contention in regard to the meaning. But I'm not referring to the word "dead" as much as I mean to direct a closer examination of the word "were", especially considering the use of it in phrases such as, "if I were a rich man." In that phrase, the idea that is being conveyed is that, currently, I am not a rich man but, if the reality were to present itself to me as an actual obtainable possibility, then I would do such and such things like buy you an island.
On the other hand, if I were actually a rich man, then the wording would be put more along the line of, "though I am/was rich".

 

[Mem]

^So, the only thing that John 11:25 simply conveys is the idea that, even if he that believes in me (Christ) dies, yet shall he live.

 

[SonJudgment]

we know from Job 38:7 the angels predate the creation of the world. they watched God do these things and rejoiced

Christ saw Satan fall to the ground like lightning. when did this occur? after he was already on the ground, when he murdered Woman?

i believe he fell in Genesis 1:1 - and that this is why the earth was formless and void, and covered with water - as it was again in the days of Noah, a judgement of sin. Ezekiel describes him walking among fiery stones before he fell - which are not in the Eden of Adam and his wife.

what did he have to gain by murdering Woman? we know his sin was pride, saying, he will be like The Most High - and that he was corrupted through the abundance of his traffic. abundance?
so did he deceive, corrupt and murder a third of the angels before he murdered Woman, or after?

i don't think putting the fall of Satan in Genesis 3 fits the rest of what we know about it. i think his actions in Genesis 3 make much more sense as vindictive, and jealous, having seen what God did making man he in wrath sought to destroy it, he himself having first been a federal head of the angels, being dethroned and cast out, and then seeing a new biogical Eden with man and woman, a new federal head of an entirely new kind of living soul.

Well, no Satan did not fall in Genesis 1, in Genesis 1 and 2 God makes the whole creation. God even says the creation is good when he makes it. It's not until evil enters the creation by the sins in the garden in Genesis 3 that there is any evil at all. That's kinda the problem of evil, all evil is unnecessary, it doesn't really have to exist, or a creation like an angel, a serpent, or a man don't have to be evil and the consequences of their evil are always bad for even themselves, yet they did do evil. Yet God is just, and God is good we know, and God made everything with intent and God did not make us as some sort of cosmic test tube, he made everything good originally and this shows his intention in telling us the truth about why not to eat of the tree and the consequences of what eating would be. God's intention was always to have his family, his kingdom and for them to live forever and be good and to love them and they to love him. God will still get this his kingdom in the end, and his will which is his intention shall be done, praise Jesus.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

^So, the only thing that John 11:25 simply conveys is the idea that, even if he that believes in me (Christ) dies, yet shall he live.

The reference to 'though he were dead', infers future tense as when God spoke to Abimelech and said "Behold, thou art but a dead man" [Gen 20:3] Abimelech was not dead, and God was not referring to the death of Abimelech's flesh. And God told him, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me:

Again it is not referring unto the flesh of man, the days of man in the flesh are already numbered, whether one accepts it or not, as it is written, So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom. [Ps 90:12]

If all John 11:25 conveys to you is the idea that whosoever believes in him dies, yet shall live, then you might consider the next verse, And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:26 However, I am sure you are aware what is written in John 12:44 that Jesus also said, "He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me."

 

[posthuman]

Death is the permanent cessation of life.

Jesus said whoever was alive and believed in him would never die. Do you believe him?

"he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11:25

The living know they will die, the dead know not anything.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24
They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. John 8:27

Ephesians 2:4-5​

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)​

Colossians 3:3​

For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.​

​

​

iif a person finds themselves agreeing with Satan and disagreeing with God, i think they should reevaluate their thinking.

 

[Aaron56]

@posthuman @Mem

Before discussing with him further, we should wait for UnoiAmarah to answer the additional questions I asked him. He already answered

1. No. That the serpent was not evil
and
2. No. The serpent did not oppose God

Both of his answers are contrary to scripture.

So I asked him to answer the following questions:

So, is the serpent Satan as told here:

"So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Next question, is Satan or the serpent evil and did he deceive Eve as is written here?;

"But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

I suspect we are dealing with a closeted satanist.

-Aaron56

 

[Webers.Home]

.
Our soul is commonly alleged to be immortal. But according to Matt 10:28
our souls are vulnerable to death by means of a hell fire described by the
Greek word geena; which is a different hell than the haides spoken of by
Luke 16:19-31.

According to Matt 16:26 our soul isn't an impervious ingredient in the recipe
of our existence; not when Jesus said our souls can be lost.

Well, the thing is: according to the first two chapters in Genesis; soul is that
part of our existence that makes us sentient beings as opposed to the
mindless existence of cacti and sandstone.

God has a soul. (Lev 26:11, Lev 26:30, Judg 10:16, Isa 42:1, Jer 32:41,
Zech 11:8) So if it were possible to somehow destroy God's soul, then He
would become as wooden as carrots and turnips, i.e. God would no longer be
a person, instead: He'd be a vegetable; which appears to be the fate of the
folks on track to lose their souls in geena. (cf. Ps 115:17-18)
_

 

[posthuman]

@posthuman @Mem

Before discussing with him further, we should wait for UnoiAmarah to answer the additional questions I asked him. He already answered

1. No. That the serpent was not evil
and
2. No. The serpent did not oppose God

Both of his answers are contrary to scripture.

So I asked him to answer the following questions:



I suspect we are dealing with a closeted satanist.

-Aaron56

I don't believe @UnoiAmarah is a Satanist lol

He holds some views about Genesis 3 that are actually very commonly taught in the church, though they cannot be correct; they fall apart quickly when examined.

And he also holds some very unorthodox views about the identity of the trees and the serpent.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

@posthuman @Mem

Before discussing with him further,

A discussion is an exchange of opinions or ideas, you make statements that when asked to substantiate and when you can't answer you you resort to doing the lusts of your father.

I suspect we are dealing with a closeted satanist.
-Aaron56

I suspect I am dealing with a fool, but who knows maybe you were sent.

And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; Num 21:6

So who sent the serpent? Who gave Moses the rod that turned into a serpent? Who sent Jesus?

 

[UnoiAmarah]

I don't believe @UnoiAmarah is a Satanist lol

He holds some views about Genesis 3 that are actually very commonly taught in the church, though they cannot be correct; they fall apart quickly when examined.

And he also holds some very unorthodox views about the identity of the trees and the serpent.

I don't know, a serpent is better than being called a humanistic atheist. LOL Unless my unorthodox view about Jesus saying to be as wise as a serpent was a mistranslation of the Greek. Humm, how far is it a stretch that the truth of a book of life could also mean that there is also a book of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Aaron56]

A discussion is an exchange of opinions or ideas, you make statements that when asked to substantiate and when you can't answer you you resort to doing the lusts of your father.



I suspect I am dealing with a fool, but who knows maybe you were sent.

And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; Num 21:6

So who sent the serpent? Who gave Moses the rod that turned into a serpent? Who sent Jesus?

You should have no issue answering the questions then.

So, is the serpent Satan as told here:

"So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Next question, is Satan or the serpent evil and did he deceive Eve as is written here?;

"But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

You already said that the serpent was not Satan AND that the serpent did not oppose God.

Please clarify your beliefs for everyone by answering the questions above.

 

[Aaron56]

I don't believe @UnoiAmarah is a Satanist lol

Perhaps he doesn't realize it.

Let him say that Satan is evil, then. He already said that the serpent was not evil and did not oppose God.

 

[posthuman]

I don't know, a serpent is better than being called a humanistic atheist. LOL

Haha!

no, i only meant that a view of "death" which only means the separation of the spirit from the body, that is physical death, is the equivalent of the atheist, materialist understanding of death.

that thereis physical and spiritual death - that the Bible while yes, speaks of physical death as death, it also speaks of death in a way that is obviously not the death of the body, as the examples i gave from Ephesians and Colossians

 

[Aaron56]

that thereis physical and spiritual death - that the Bible while yes, speaks of physical death as death, it also speaks of death in a way that is obviously not the death of the body, as the examples i gave from Ephesians and Colossians

Right. That is the pivot point: the flesh and the spirit. Biologically, wisdom from below, death is defined by the cessation of brain functioning. In the Kingdom of God, wisdom from above, death is separation from the Living God.

 

[posthuman]

Right. That is the pivot point: the flesh and the spirit. Biologically, wisdom from below, death is defined by the cessation of brain functioning. In the Kingdom of God, wisdom from above, death is separation from the Living God.

Yes

So when God asks Adam "where are you?" and Cain, "where is your brother Abel?" - - this is not because God doesn't know, but because those hearing the question need to think about the answer!

the spirit of Adam had become separated from God, as had Cains, and the spirit of Abel had returned to God.
all three were "dead" in different ways

 

[maxwel]

Yes

So when God asks Adam "where are you?" and Cain, "where is your brother Abel?" - - this is not because God doesn't know, but because those hearing the question need to think about the answer!

the spirit of Adam had become separated from God, as had Cains, and the spirit of Abel had returned to God.
all three were "dead" in different ways

God knows all questions:
I agree that God did not ask questions because the answers were unknown.
Of course he knew, I completely agree.
So, as you implied, we have to ask ourselves, "Why DID God ask the question?"


Exegesis - Order Of Operations
But in sorting out a Bible question, we still need to be careful of one more thing - the ORDER OF OPERATIONS for our exegesis.

1.) When we analyze what scripture means to "those hearing the question", we need to make sure we are not analyzing ourselves, the modern readers, but rather the historical audience.
2.) So the first ORDER OF OPERATIONS is to determine the historical audience, and think about what the question meant to THEM.
(In this case it would be Adam and Cain.)
3.) Then, after understanding the question in historical context, we then take that understanding of the passage, and begin to apply that understanding to ourselves, as the modern reader.
4.) That's the rational order of operations for applying Bible principles to ourselves, as modern readers.

This may have been exactly what you meant.
But since this issue is confusing to people in a postmodern culture, I wanted to break it down a bit.



God Bless Brother.
Hope you have a great weekend.

.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

no, i only meant that a view of "death" which only means the separation of the spirit from the body, that is physical death, is the equivalent of the atheist, materialist understanding of death.

The life of the flesh is not the flesh. I can't speak for an atheist but it seems that they think that the flesh is a living system and that system is what animates (gives life) to the flesh.

that thereis physical and spiritual death - that the Bible while yes, speaks of physical death as death, it also speaks of death in a way that is obviously not the death of the body, as the examples i gave from Ephesians and Colossians

If the body without the spirit is dead, then the body with a dead spirit is physically dead. The spirit without the word of God withereth away.

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live .Ezek 18:21-22

Hence, that which is written in Luke 5:32, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

You gave an example of a dead spirit:

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) Ephesians 2:4-5

And I too gave an example of the expression of being dead in one's trespass literally means.

But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. Gen 20:3
And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine. Gen 20:6-7

 

[Beckworth]

I still believe it was the sin act. God said 'Do not" , but they did anyway. That act of disobedience brought on the separation from God.

You are correct. Over and over again throughout the old testament when anyone disobeyed God, there were consequences to be paid. Isaiah 59:2 specifically says their sins are what separated them from God. It was not about the fruit.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

the spirit of Adam had become separated from God,

And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. Gen 3:8-10

So hearing the voice of the LORD is indicative of being spiritually dead or seperated from God?

the spirit of Adam had become separated from God, as had Cains, and the spirit of Abel had returned to God.
all three were "dead" in different ways

And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hands. Gen 4:10-11

Abel was physically dead in the day that Cain slew him. Adam knew he would die in the day he ate from the tree of knowledge because the LORD told him that he would know that he would surely die. ( the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.)

But back to Cain, Cain wasn't dead. But Cain did not confess his sin, nor repent.

Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; Gen 4:14

Spiritual separation is more akin to being separated from the truth, which begs the question,

How do you leave the presence of an omnipresent being?

And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. Deut 32:20

 

[maxwel]

How do you leave the presence of an omnipresent being?

Not Physical Separation, but Relational Separation:


1.) Adam wasn't separated physically, he was separated by relationship... the perfection of the relationship was broken by sin.

2.) In the same way as all of us who proceed from Adam, Adam moved into a broken relationship with God, a relationship in which he was under condemnation.

John 3:18
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,"
Romans 5:18
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

.