Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
- Thread starter MerSee
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The Bible is filled with free responses, the point is not to take one situation or statement like "no one seeks God" and make into blanket statement for all people, in all places, for all time, the scripture needs to be rightly divided.
That is the real pitfall of determinism/calvinism, it is in the end utterly simplistic.
Okay. I don't need to believe in trinity, which concept is fluid and has a variety of conflicting configurations. I do believe that Jesus is God; the Father is God. God is the Father of all living. The Holy Spirit is God. And there is only one God. The Bible days those things about the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and God.Calm down, already. You're going to have a stroke.
Neither is Trinity or Incarnation found in scriprture. So you don't believe in these two doctrines? But every single team of original language scholars has inserted the term "Sovereign" (usually in caps) and used as an adjective to mean "superlative in quality", "excellent", "of the the most exalted kind". The NIV alone employs the term in the OT 303 times. From the definitions I just provided, are you going to deny that the concept of "sovereign" is not found in scripture?
But I'm not surprised that you object so vehemently and strenuously against the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God. It's typical of the NR to diminish the high and lofty and exalted status of God and instead assign it to man -- most especially to man's will and his worldly idea of what freedom is. This isn't the first time I've heard this kind of objection. Skeptics, atheists, pantheists, and others also hate the concept. It's amazing how much you NR have in common with the with these kinds of dead people.
I do not need to believe in the incarnation, but I do believe that Jesus was an ever-existing person who was, is and will always be God, who becane the human being named Jesus of Nazareth. The Bible says those things about Jesus.
I do not believe that God has foreordained all the details of reality and history from before anything came into being, because the Bible doesn't say that He did.
Demons have of their own free will possessed men, then of their own free will choose to enter swine. God says "OK" (KNOWING FULL WELL WHAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN!). Pigs commit sue-cide and these demons are cast into the abyss anyways!
Who wins in this encounter? God. Who has free will? Everybody. INCLUDING THE SWINE!
Mat 8:28
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Mat 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mat 8:30
And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
Mat 8:31
So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
Mat 8:32
And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
Who wins in this encounter? God. Who has free will? Everybody. INCLUDING THE SWINE!
Mat 8:28
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Mat 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mat 8:30
And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
Mat 8:31
So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
Mat 8:32
And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
Precisely!
Context is really a problem for those driving an erroneous presupposition.
Nice work on the context - both textual and historical.
A little irony about what would happen when some of those who presuppose some views ascribed to John Calvin meet Scripture in context:
Eating crow is of a family of idioms having to do with eating and being proven incorrect, such as to "eat dirt", to "eat your hat" (or shoe), or to put one's foot in mouth; all probably originating from "to eat one's words", which first appears in print in 1571 in one of John Calvin's tracts, on Psalm 62: "God eateth not his words when he hath once spoken".[2]
Eating crow is of a family of idioms having to do with eating and being proven incorrect, such as to "eat dirt", to "eat your hat" (or shoe), or to put one's foot in mouth; all probably originating from "to eat one's words", which first appears in print in 1571 in one of John Calvin's tracts, on Psalm 62: "God eateth not his words when he hath once spoken".[2]
So God did indeed override the volition of men. Thanks. That's what I've been saying all along.
It amazes me that you most likely read this from Rufus but still posted what you did.
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
Herod
Pilate
Gentiles
People of Israel
ALL conspired against Jesus
They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen
That is the same thing as was being COMMANDED to do it!
Because they had NO CHOICE but to do it!
And as far as Free Will is concerned, GOD did not make me yield to Him when I was saved.
I yielded to Him because I WANTED to!
My love is GENUINE for GOD because I chose to YIELD, not was forced to.
You say it is the same thing, but I don't believe it is. You make God the author of evil. Also, any way
you look at it, you are saying they had no free will in the matter, and then even that you deny.
There is no command for the Pharisees to kill Jesus in the Bible.
AMEN!
It most definitely was by the Father's power and will that they did kill Jesus.
They had no choice but to do it even if they did not want to do it.
The BIBLE says it.
Not me.
I am REPEATING the Bible.
How are you forced to do anything?
It has to be a Command by God that forced them to do it.
Or Decree.
Either way God said it will be done and they had no choice but to do it.
Still no command shown given from God for them to do it. Just your assertion that it was commanded,
and that His will and foreknowledge are the same thing as being commanded, while you deny that them
having no choice in the matter has anything to do with them not having a will that is free.
No you are not. There is no command given in the Bible for the Pharisees to kill Jesus.
Jeepers.
The typically erroneous and wholly ignorant response. God DOES NOT NEED to trample on the will of unbelieving men.
The fact is that omniscient God has EVERY CONTINGENCY, every providential solution, every countermeasure strategy PREPARED before the foundation of the world.......in terms of His plan of salvation as it relates to those who believe Him and put their trust in Him.
The rest? Judgement/separation. Sooner or later. Which puts an end to THEIR evil will as it affects His creation.
Presently, the evil will of evil entities IS ALLOWED to manifest. But not forever.
I never said these people had no choice in the matter.
Before they were ever created, ever were appointed to live, they all came on earth around same times or that they all would be on earth at the same time as Jesus was on earth.
And they were always going to do this.
They were always going to kill Jesus.
It was by God's Command or Decree for this to happen.
Use God's Design then but it was GOD WHO DID THIS!
You are arguing based on a single word but what happened is the SAME THING AS A COMMAND WAS GIVEN whether you like it or not!