Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Do you believe those not allowed to enter the Promised Land were Saved?
If you don't then you are not Reformed, like he is.

So, where are we at in this?

 

[Mem]

To be perfectly honest here, I am Jewish and attended Mishnah like all male Jews do. Circumcision, is a very basic principle because in the Law they removed the foreskin and under Christ and for the Gentiles it was done inwardly in the heart. So this is all very basic knowledge all throughout the Mikra and no surprise it would continue in the New Covenant.

And yes, the work on the Cross would go as far back as it does going forward to this current day and tomorrow should tomorrow come and beyond. But the Wilderness people continually rejected God and even did not fulfill the Law most of the time. Much of why Moses set up leadership within each of the 12 Tribes. So that is very debatable but not many Jews would buy it.

I can only imagine the experiential effects of a circumcision, but I suppose it has to do with an enhanced sensitivity toward the 'air.' And even though the people were circumcised, their heart remained dull toward the true spirit of God evidenced by their display of doubt that God actually cared for them, asking Moses, "why have you brought us out just to die here in the desert?" I can sympathize with them having come from that mindset, "if God loved me, then he'd do that, and then wouldn't let them do this, and my ice cream wouldn't have melted and I have nothing" and am still a work in progress toward, "God loves me, even though I'd done that, and then wouldn't let him do this, and my ice cream melted...because He owns the cattle on a thousand hills..." But scripture promises their fullness as much as that of the Gentiles, and that this will only result in greater riches for the gentiles. And I truly believe I'm witnessing a bud from the tree in such as you and can't help but anticipate its full bloom!

 

[Mem]

#re: the greater riches of which I consider to be the treasure of a deeper the understanding of the Torah (down to every jot and tittle of it), in its relevance to the Messiah, Who shall return all in all to the Father.

 

[Magenta]

So, where are we at in this?

I was talking with one guy here off and on in threads like these, he was a hard-core Calvinist and kept insisting I was an Arminian "free willer" as he calls them, even though I could give evidence in over 50 posts over many years here that I do not believe man's will is free as per Scripture... it did not stop him wanting to label me that which he detested... and he would say things like, look, you just explained what Arminian means, that makes you an Arminian, and I would counter, I also explain Calvinist points but that does not make me a Calvinist any more than explaining things about Arminianism makes me Arminian. He would not desist. He was intent on labeling me and no amount of evidence/proof to the contrary was going to change his mind...

 

[selahsays]

Absolutely! God literally and supernaturally created his own nation from Abraham who was as "good as dead" (Rom 4:19; Heb 11:12) due to his old age and from Sarah's dead womb! God sovereignly entered into a personal, loving, unconditional relationship with Abraham to create a people for Himself. If that isn't election, then I don't know what is! Moreover, the Abraham Covenant is a redemptive covenant by nature in which God wasted no time whatsoever to drive the point home early on that the people who descended from Abraham and Sarah ultimately came into this world by God's power alone! I am convinced this is one of the reasons why God rejected Ishmael from participating in this redemptive covenant of promise. This covenant was going to be fulfilled solely by God Sovereign Grace (a/k/a power)!

Sister, I have some really good stuff that I'll be beaming up soon. But it's not milk! It's not Theology 101! More like tough meat, Theology 303 <g>. So, I hope you can find the time to read the lengthy article to which I'll be linking everyone. Take it in bite-sized chunks. The article asks four major sets of theological questions, so take 'em all one at a time at a pace that is comfortable for you. Each set of questions addresses a specific issue that detractors to the Five Doctrines of Grace often use in their attempt to refute these doctrines, most especially the doctrine of Total Depravity.

I agree. And God always intercedes in the lives of His elect, such as Abraham and Noah and Moses and Jeremiah and Paul. —As you know, even though I certainly believe in election, I‘m not at all sure about TULIP. Thanks, Ruf.

 

[Magenta]

I agree. And God always intercedes in the lives of His elect, such as Abraham and Noah and Moses and Jeremiah and Paul.
—As you know, even though I certainly believe in election, I‘m not at all sure about TULIP. Thanks, Ruf.

You have a habit of singling out certain people as above as if God does not intercede in the lives of all His children .

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

So, where are we at in this?

26 And the LORD spoke unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying:

27 'How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, that keep murmuring against Me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they keep murmuring against Me.

28 Say unto them: As I live, saith the LORD, surely as ye have spoken in Mine ears, so will I do to you:

29 your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness, and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, ye that have murmured against Me;

30 surely ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I lifted up My hand that I would make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

31 But your little ones, that ye said would be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have rejected.

32 But as for you, your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness.

33 And your children shall be wanderers in the wilderness forty years, and shall bear your strayings, until your carcasses be consumed in the wilderness.


................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

39 And Moses told these words unto all the children of Israel; and the people mourned greatly.

40 And they rose up early in the morning, and got them up to the top of the mountain, saying: 'Lo, we are here, and will go up unto the place which the LORD hath promised; for we have sinned.'

41 And Moses said: 'Wherefore now do ye transgress the commandment of the LORD, seeing it shall not prosper?

42 Go not up, for the LORD is not among you; that ye be not smitten down before your enemies.

43 For there the Amalekite and the Canaanite are before you, and ye shall fall by the sword; forasmuch as ye are turned back from following the LORD, and the LORD will not be with you.'

44 But they presumed to go up to the top of the mountain; nevertheless the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and Moses, departed not out of the camp.

45 Then the Amalekite and the Canaanite, who dwelt in that hill-country, came down, and smote them and beat them down, even unto Hormah


................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


Moses told them the LORD is not among you + You turned back from following the LORD and the LORD will not be with you

Then they were smoted and beat down destroyed.

They were truly Back Sliders and without God and God killed them.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I can only imagine the experiential effects of a circumcision, but I suppose it has to do with an enhanced sensitivity toward the 'air.' And even though the people were circumcised, their heart remained dull toward the true spirit of God evidenced by their display of doubt that God actually cared for them, asking Moses, "why have you brought us out just to die here in the desert?" I can sympathize with them having come from that mindset, "if God loved me, then he'd do that, and then wouldn't let them do this, and my ice cream wouldn't have melted and I have nothing" and am still a work in progress toward, "God loves me, even though I'd done that, and then wouldn't let him do this, and my ice cream melted...because He owns the cattle on a thousand hills..." But scripture promises their fullness as much as that of the Gentiles, and that this will only result in greater riches for the gentiles. And I truly believe I'm witnessing a bud from the tree in such as you and can't help but anticipate its full bloom!

The real irony here is God was keeping His Promise and Covenant to Abraham but the people were revolting against God. And God took their Offspring ages 20 and younger and fulfilled His Promise but the rest were destroyed and without God like true Back Sliders.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

26 And the LORD spoke unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying:

27 'How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, that keep murmuring against Me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they keep murmuring against Me.

28 Say unto them: As I live, saith the LORD, surely as ye have spoken in Mine ears, so will I do to you:

29 your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness, and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, ye that have murmured against Me;

30 surely ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I lifted up My hand that I would make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

31 But your little ones, that ye said would be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have rejected.

32 But as for you, your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness.

33 And your children shall be wanderers in the wilderness forty years, and shall bear your strayings, until your carcasses be consumed in the wilderness.


................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

39 And Moses told these words unto all the children of Israel; and the people mourned greatly.

40 And they rose up early in the morning, and got them up to the top of the mountain, saying: 'Lo, we are here, and will go up unto the place which the LORD hath promised; for we have sinned.'

41 And Moses said: 'Wherefore now do ye transgress the commandment of the LORD, seeing it shall not prosper?

42 Go not up, for the LORD is not among you; that ye be not smitten down before your enemies.

43 For there the Amalekite and the Canaanite are before you, and ye shall fall by the sword; forasmuch as ye are turned back from following the LORD, and the LORD will not be with you.'

44 But they presumed to go up to the top of the mountain; nevertheless the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and Moses, departed not out of the camp.

45 Then the Amalekite and the Canaanite, who dwelt in that hill-country, came down, and smote them and beat them down, even unto Hormah


................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


Moses told them the LORD is not among you + You turned back from following the LORD and the LORD will not be with you

Then they were smoted and beat down destroyed.

They were truly Back Sliders and without God and God killed them.

You charged me with a severe spiritual condition. Where are we at regarding that charge?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I was talking with one guy here off and on in threads like these, he was a hard-core Calvinist and kept insisting I was an Arminian "free willer" as he calls them, even though I could give evidence in over 50 posts over many years here that I do not believe man's will is free as per Scripture... it did not stop him wanting to label me that which he detested... and he would say things like, look, you just explained what Arminian means, that makes you an Arminian, and I would counter, I also explain Calvinist points but that does not make me a Calvinist any more than explaining things about Arminianism makes me Arminian. He would not desist. He was intent on labeling me and no amount of evidence/proof to the contrary was going to change his mind...

It is all so strange that Christians would treat each other this way. Particularly when scripture is abundantly clear that those who are abusive, they couldn't possibly belong to the father.

I find it very interesting that rarely do we ever encounter such abusive people within the church. That's not to say that they don't exist, for I've had a man about 160 years old step up about 2 in from my face and put his finger in my chest. But by and large, this Behavior does not happen within a church building, at least not on a weekly basis, as it is done at Christian Forums on a moment by moment basis.

If there's one thing that we can count on from Christian forums, is that there will be an active fight amongst Christians. I wonder why this is? Why is this Behavior allowed? Does it have something to do with donations? After all, if all argumentative and disruptive people were to be rejected, with the ownership make as much money?

And please pardon my typos, I'm voice texting which isn't always the most effective.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You charged me with a severe spiritual condition. Where are we at regarding that charge?

Those verses are clear those who were not allowed into the Promised Land were without God [per Moses].
So they died without God in their life.

The charge was do you still believe like the other poster they were saved, because God's Sovereignty could never allow losses...even though...those verses spell it out that He did allow it?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Those verses are clear those who were not allowed into the Promised Land were without God [per Moses].
So they died without God in their life.

The charge was do you still believe like the other poster they were saved, because God's Sovereignty could never allow losses...even though...those verses spell it out that He did allow it?

The charge was that I was not reformed like this said other poster.

I guess it doesn't matter. I've already given my answer which was clearly no, they weren't saved. However, I offered the scripture that shows that God was fair and just and would give them an opportunity to be saved. As Paul said, the law was a protective, umbrella like Guardian that would last until the day of christ.

Hey, at least I was pretty excited for about 45 minutes there. Oh well, better than nothing I suppose.

 

[selahsays]

You have a habit of singling out certain people as above as if God does not intercede in the lives of all His children .

His children are Elect.

 

[PaulThomson]

I sure hope you don't share any more of your thoughts on this because these people never made it to the Promised Land. So God did not save them. He saved their offspring. And God kept His Covenant to Abraham through the offspring. So you have completely missed the entire point. God only brought Believers to the Promised Land. Not these non believers who actually lived in God's Miraculous Grace for 40 years.

You are so short sided on your comprehension of the Word of God it gets to become a chore to see you straining a gnat attempting to swallow a camel most of the time.

I 'm having difficulty seeing your point.

If you choose to believe incorrect doctrine, you choose to be an outsider. There is no other way.

Is it salvation all Jesus? Or Jesus plus confessing correct doctrine?

 

[Mem]

The real irony here is God was keeping His Promise and Covenant to Abraham but the people were revolting against God. And God took their Offspring ages 20 and younger and fulfilled His Promise but the rest were destroyed and without God like true Back Sliders.

I'd categorize them as idolaters rather than back sliders. But then I'm not sure I have a sure grasp of what exactly constitutes a backslider. As I see it, an idolater does not love God with all he's got, and a backslider is similar but more like an adulterer in he might love God but has a tendency to keep longing for other gods. I guess either way, these have missed.

 

[PaulThomson]

Unity involves submitting to the truth of Jesus Christ. Only the elect ultimately believe the correct sound doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Is salvation all about trusting Jesus? or trusting Jesus and trusting some man's interpretation of Jesus' words?

 

[Magenta]

His children are Elect.

I may never get a straight answer from you...

 

[PaulThomson]

Ah. So you are being forced against your will? Interesting in that peculiar and contradictory way you are so good at displaying!

Free will is not a claim that we cannot be forced to behave against our will. You are confusing free will with omnipotence.

Will is the desire behind actions. That is what "thelO" means. Having free will means that when someone wants to force us to do something against our will, the cannot make us stop willing not to do it. Doing something against your will means your will is free. If someone were able directly to manipulate your desires, without persuading you to want something different, so that they make you want to do something that you did not previously want to do, by unilaterally changing your desire, then they will have violated your free will. God does not violate free will. He can force people to do things they do not want to do.

 

[PaulThomson]

To the the NR (non-Reformed) whiners and complainers who insist that God would be violating the sanctity and integrity of a person's free moral agency if He ever sovereignly moved against that moral agency,

Who among the non-reformed are making that claim? God often moves against people's moral agency in scripture. Jonah for one. Pharaoh for another. I suspect you are not listening to what people are actually saying, but rather are merely repeating accusations you have read or heard against non-reformed believers. Can you give an example of non-reformed believers complaining that "God would be violating the sanctity and integrity of a person's free moral agency if He ever sovereignly moved against that moral agency" ?

 

[studier]

it gets to become a chore

That's the strategy.