Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#7,541
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#7,541
selahsays said:
Hey bro…I like what you’ve written here; it shows compassion. :)
Click to expand...
Thank you kindly. However, I see that I was derailed from the original point I was trying to make, which is that because a person is controlled by a Sinful Nature, how can they ultimately be responsible?

I think that God understands this, which is the point of His Grace, which leads to genuine Faith itself.

The key phrase below is, "so that" for it clearly demonstrates that unless these certain and Spiritual acts of the Lord are what makes it possible for any person to receive this Holy Work, able to finally Love and obey the Lord.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."

Unless a person receives the above Spiritual Circumcision and its accompanying gifts, such as the Holy Spirit, no person is able to obey. Further, we see this exact phrase in Deut 30:6.

Deuteronomy 30:6 NLT - "The LORD your God will change your heart and the hearts of all your descendants, so that you will love him with all your heart and soul and so you may live!"

If a person does not receive this Circumcision of heart, it will be impossible to truly Love God according to His definition of Love. That definition includes and depends upon obedience and Love, for it we do not possess them, we have not received the Circumcision of Christ. And if a person has not received this Holy Work, then the Effect of that Holy Work is 100% impossible to have, hold, and express.

This seems to be missing from Spurgeon's work, and it is definitely missing from John MacArthur's work and understanding of this vital, core doctrine of the entire Bible.
 
S

studier

Well-known member
#7,542
Apr 18, 2024
1,195
233
63
#7,542
Natural Man in Adam > Hears the Gospel of God of Jesus = Christ - the Power of God for Salvation - being ultimately taught by God through His servant preachers/proclaimers sent by God (just as it was through His Servant Son whom He sent) - under the Convicting Ministry of the Holy Spirit (since the ascension and session of the Christ = Jesus > Believes (or Rejects) > Born from Above from the seed / Word of God & Ministry of God the Holy Spirit, deemed righteous by God, baptized by the Spirit, circumcised without hands in heart & becomes an Infant Christian in Christ in Spirit - a spiritually ignorant Christian still oriented to being fleshly & sinning > drinks as commanded the Milk of Basic Christian Teachings about the Spiritual Life in Christ > Becomes a Young Man eating more advanced spiritual food > becomes a Mature Christian - no longer oriented to being fleshy but now trained by God and oriented to the Walk in Spirit and not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh - able to digest the advanced spiritual Meat of the full scope of the Gospel about the deep things of God, the things God has prepared for those who love Him - being increasingly conformed to the likeness of Christ, in pursuit of the high call of God in Christ Jesus, perfection, arriving at the resurrection...

Most of the discussion in the New Covenant is about the life of the Christian and getting him through infancy without delay into maturity. The infant Christian is oriented to the flesh (carnal) and being in strife with others. The condition is recognized but not catered to. The infant/child spends quite a bit of time under the strict disciplinary training and punishment of our perfect Father getting the carnality worked out of him. It is the mature Christian Sons that Christ died to make. Wallowing in infancy is rebuked and dangerous. Paul says in Philippians that those who are not mature and in pursuit of the high call of God in Christ - maturity & beyond - are ultimately enemies of the cross of Christ who did not die to make perpetual infants.

The reason the unbelieving natural man is compared to the Spiritual Man / Mature Christian Son is because the infant in Christ in Spirit is simply not something the Word of God spends a lot of ink on. It is not the interest in the Text that men place on it. It is not the goal of salvation and not what salvation is really about. By comparing the unbeliever to the Mature Sons of God, Paul is once again stressing the fact that Salvation has a goal. He's oriented to and looking at the eschaton - the revealing of the Sons of God and the fact that there will be Matured & Perfected Spiritual Sons in Adam II and no more Natural Man in Adam I unable to understand what God has prepared for His Loving Spiritual Sons. Behold, all things are New.

A comprehensive study of Biblical Salvation reveals that very little time is spent looking at the entrance into Christ & infancy, and most of the NC Text is looking through the entrance and beyond into the growth in Salvation with the end goal of Salvation in view.

Honestly, all this TULIP discussion is a distraction from what's important - from what the New Covenant Writings and hundreds of Christ's commands are focused on. IMO it's also a mess. It bypasses the planting of the seed which is the Word and says the plant needs to be rooted and partially grown to receive the seed, which is the Word (the Gospel). It has no comprehension of what Spiritual Death is and is not. It's a complete waste of time and disorients the mind of the Christian from seeing the structured Truth in our Text.

Thanks for the discussion.
 
selahsays

selahsays

Well-known member
#7,543
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
#7,543
2ndTimothyGroup said:
Thank you kindly. However, I see that I was derailed from the original point I was trying to make, which is that because a person is controlled by a Sinful Nature, how can they ultimately be responsible?

I think that God understands this, which is the point of His Grace, which leads to genuine Faith itself.

The key phrase below is, "so that" for it clearly demonstrates that unless these certain and Spiritual acts of the Lord are what makes it possible for any person to receive this Holy Work, able to finally Love and obey the Lord.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."

Unless a person receives the above Spiritual Circumcision and its accompanying gifts, such as the Holy Spirit, no person is able to obey. Further, we see this exact phrase in Deut 30:6.

Deuteronomy 30:6 NLT - "The LORD your God will change your heart and the hearts of all your descendants, so that you will love him with all your heart and soul and so you may live!"

If a person does not receive this Circumcision of heart, it will be impossible to truly Love God according to His definition of Love. That definition includes and depends upon obedience and Love, for it we do not possess them, we have not received the Circumcision of Christ. And if a person has not received this Holy Work, then the Effect of that Holy Work is 100% impossible to have, hold, and express.

This seems to be missing from Spurgeon's work, and it is definitely missing from John MacArthur's work and understanding of this vital, core doctrine of the entire Bible.
Click to expand...
I truly doubt that “this” was missing from Spurgeon’s work. Let’s please consider the specific topic Spurgeon was reflecting on—that election and free will both exist.

Yes indeed. Heart circumcision is vital in becoming a Christian. :)

Let’s read Ezekiel 36:25-27 again. This verse is prophecy, looking forward to the Millennium, the time after Jesus Christ returns at His second advent. Keep in mind that we are talking about the House of Israel here. God will put the two houses back together again.

—Selah
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#7,544
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#7,544
selahsays said:
I truly doubt that “this” was missing from Spurgeon’s work. Let’s please consider the specific topic Spurgeon was reflecting on—that election and free will both exist.

Yes indeed. Heart circumcision is vital in becoming a Christian. :)

Let’s read Ezekiel 36:25-27 again. This verse is prophecy, looking forward to the Millennium, the time after Jesus Christ returns at His second advent. Keep in mind that we are talking about the House of Israel here. God will put the two houses back together again.

—Selah
Click to expand...
I fully understand that these passages SEEM to refer to certain people, but there is only one Faith. These Spiritual Works apply to all Who belong to the Lord.
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#7,545
Feb 17, 2024
3,050
411
83
#7,545
PaulThomson said:
According to your reading of me". But we know from your misreading of scripture that you would be unlikely to comprehend my posts without some distortion from LOUPI bias.
Click to expand...
Classic! The Pot calling the Kettle black!
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#7,546
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#7,546
selahsays said:
I truly doubt that “this” was missing from Spurgeon’s work. Let’s please consider the specific topic Spurgeon was reflecting on—that election and free will both exist.

Yes indeed. Heart circumcision is vital in becoming a Christian. :)

Let’s read Ezekiel 36:25-27 again. This verse is prophecy, looking forward to the Millennium, the time after Jesus Christ returns at His second advent. Keep in mind that we are talking about the House of Israel here. God will put the two houses back together again.

—Selah
Click to expand...
Hello friend . . . do you think that Ezekiel 36:25-27 points to Christ? When Jesus said the below words, there was no New Testament. Therefore, the OT points to Christ.

John 5:39 NLT - "You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!"
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#7,547
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#7,547
selahsays said:
That would be just fine with me. :)

Here’s a little quote from C. H. Hadden.
“The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once…..I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into antimonianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few cansee clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory, but they are not. The fault is in our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other…..They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.​
Click to expand...
I'd summarize this in that God provides man with the choice, freewill, but man has no power to determine where his choice will lead him, God determines that, sovereignty. That is, I can go wrong all by myself, but I need to choose God's will for me, His Way, if I am to have any hope of eternal life.
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#7,548
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#7,548
Mem said:
I'd summarize this in that God provides man with the choice, freewill, but man has no power to determine where his choice will lead him, God determines that, sovereignty. That is, I can go wrong all by myself, but I need to choose God's will for me, His Way, if I am to have any hope of eternal life.
Click to expand...
How can a person have freewill, but no control over where his choices will lead? Because this doesn't make sense to me, I can know with certainty that I am lacking some kind of understanding, knowledge, and perhaps wisdom. I need these three! :D
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#7,549
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#7,549
2ndTimothyGroup said:
How can a person have freewill, but no control over where his choices will lead? Because this doesn't make sense to me, I can know with certainty that I am lacking some kind of understanding, knowledge, and perhaps wisdom. I need these three! :D
Click to expand...
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own and find life, even if I think my plan would work.
 
selahsays

selahsays

Well-known member
#7,550
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
#7,550
Mem said:
I'd summarize this in that God provides man with the choice, freewill, but man has no power to determine where his choice will lead him, God determines that, sovereignty. That is, I can go wrong all by myself, but I need to choose God's will for me, His Way, if I am to have any hope of eternal life.
Click to expand...
I agree, and I like your summary very much. God wants free-willing people that are willing to love Him and follow Him always.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#7,551
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#7,551
selahsays said:
I agree, and I like your summary very much. God wants free-willing people that are willing to love Him and follow Him always.
Click to expand...
Yes, and 'surrendering' ourselves to Him (an act of freewill) reveals more and more of His love toward us and generates more and more of our love for Him. I think people that hesitant to surrender themselves to Him resist because they are fearful that He might 'hurt' them in some way, like make them live miserable lives to pay for their sin, for example. I suppose this is seeded in control issues.
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#7,552
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#7,552
Mem said:
I mean that I can't choose to go on my own and find life, even if I think my plan would work.
Click to expand...
I still don't get it. If a person can't choose to go on their own, how could they possess free will?
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#7,554
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#7,554
Mem said:
Yes, and 'surrendering' ourselves to Him (an act of freewill)
Click to expand...
This is difficult for me to comprehend, as the context of the Bible is that no matter how hard a person might try, they cannot release themselves from captivity. Instead, people are released from their captivity by God alone.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#7,556
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#7,556
2ndTimothyGroup said:
I still don't get it. If a person can't choose to go on their own, how could they possess free will?
Click to expand...
We cannot determine the consequences of our choice. In making the choice for the Way, we trust God's word that it is the way that leads to life.
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
#7,557
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,954
113
#7,557
Mem said:
We cannot determine the consequences of their choice. In making the choice for the Way, we trust God's word that it is the way that leads to life.
Click to expand...
I am baffled. Didn't you just say that a person cannot choose to go on their own?
 
M

MerSee

Active member
#7,559
Jan 13, 2024
796
119
43
#7,559
2ndTimothyGroup said:
This is difficult for me to comprehend, as the context of the Bible is that no matter how hard a person might try, they cannot release themselves from captivity. Instead, people are released from their captivity by God alone.
Click to expand...
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.