Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Mem]

It may not seem like it, but this is why I post Scripture in context and highlight what I see, so any can discuss it and check me. @PaulThomson and I went through this process respectfully and to some depth.

The sad fact IMView is that so few are willing to do this. Honestly, I just want to know what the Word says and means. Absurdity and eisegesis, among other things, is just not an acceptable option, unless we just desire to remain as your posted video depicts.

This approach to scripture would seem to me as warranted in any approach to any intimacy with God. Otherwise, it's just a superficial nod and at the most only patronization. But that's just me.

 

[Mem]

Again, you confuse the issue. I stated my position very clearly. And there was a question at the end of my post. What do you make of all those people?

How do you know "all the people"? I don't.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Not at all. He quickens the dead. Dead people don't hear. Living people do. The same is true spiritually.

Nope, nowhere does it say the dead are first quickened before hearing Jesus speak and especially nothing like that is said about how Lazarus heard. That is your doctrine speaking because the Bible says nothing about what you claim.

 

[HeIsHere]

Nope, nowhere does it say the dead are first quickened before hearing Jesus speak and especially nothing like that is said about how Lazarus heard. That is your doctrine speaking because the Bible says nothing about what you claim.

Thank you!

 

[Cameron143]

This does not refute my assertion that God is the ultimate authority on who receives 'the baby' and who does without. The king's life is ultimately in God's hands wherever his heart might lead him. God reserves His right to influence, and how He exerts that influence is at His discretion.



re: first statement
This is addressed in my initial response.
re: second statement
Are you able to present evidence of this or is this merely hearsay?

So God is sovereign in all matters but salvation? He can intervene as He pleases to save a child, but not intervene to save anyone else?
Answer the question I posed and see if you don't answer your question. But from scripture in Romans 10 we find God involving Himself in salvation by sending preachers as He has prescribed the inclusion of His word as a part of salvation.

 

[Rufus]

God always gives people the eternal existence they ultimately choose.

On the other hand, there are some things in life that clearly are not of human prerogative (Gen 3:22-24).

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Not one? Really?
What do you think this verse is saying?

[1Co 2:12 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

This verse is for SAVED people, not like you are trying to make it mean.

Which verses explicitly state that we can hear spiritually before and without having the Holy Spirit? I'd be interested in reading them.

The ones I have already presented and you try to ignore where they heard first then were saved secondly.

 

[HeIsHere]

My position is that it takes an enablement from God to respond in faith. This can be easily defended by scripture.
I would also proffer that if God doesn't sovereignly enter the affairs of men, no one would be saved. This too is easily evidenced from scripture and history.

There have been huge portions and people groups who never received attention from God. The were born, lived, and died without ever hearing about Jesus. What do you make of such people?

This is just a tragic view, sad you think this way.

You use nice words, but ultimately you are stating that God leaves people in their sin, by His sovereign choice, to perish, even those who hear the Gospel.

If your view was easily defended this thread would be quiet.

 

[studier]

Those were examples of sovereign choices God has made. My purpose in using these things was to make the point that the rape analogy was ridiculous as it is never used about other sovereign choices God has made. The rest is your insinuation.

Actually, the rest is my understanding of what you wrote and the comparison you made in the context of the discussion.

Assuming God sovereignly chooses to bring us, or allow us to come into existence - how is this the same as sovereignly commandeering the will of one already in existence?

In the first example, we have no existence and no will. In the second example, we have existence and will and are in spiritual death (which is existence and not inexistence (sorry for the double negative).

How are these the same?

I'm listening, but your logic, if there is any, escapes me.

I haven't used the word yet, and will rather use force oneself, but how does one force oneself on the nonexistent? I'd hope you'd agree that one can force oneself on the existing.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

This is just a tragic view, sad you think this way.

You use nice words, but ultimately you are stating that God leaves people in their sin, by His sovereign choice, to perish, even those who hear the Gospel.

If your view was easily defended this thread would be quiet.

He speaks about God how he personally acts.

Watch how people explain sovereignty. It's exactly how they themselves act towards others, not anything like God does.

 

[Cameron143]

Nope, nowhere does it say the dead are first quickened before hearing Jesus speak and especially nothing like that is said about how Lazarus heard. That is your doctrine speaking because the Bible says nothing about what you claim.

The things that are seen teach us the invisible things of God. Nothing about creation or its processes is without meaning. They teach us about the unseen spiritual reality. This is true of the birthing of individuals and their deaths.
God has an infinite mind. He could have done everything He has done in an infinite number of ways. He chose as He did to reveal more of Himself and spiritual reality.

 

[HeIsHere]

He speaks about God how he personally acts.

Watch how people explain sovereignty. It's exactly how they themselves act, not anything like God does.

Yes I see that as well.

I have done some research on these trained responses, it is rather impressive how the same debate tactics are employed over and over again.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The things that are seen teach us the invisible things of God. Nothing about creation or its processes is without meaning. They teach us about the unseen spiritual reality. This is true of the birthing of individuals and their deaths.
God has an infinite mind. He could have done everything He has done in an infinite number of ways. He chose as He did to reveal more of Himself and spiritual reality.

That's about Creation, Romans 1:20

You are interjecting what the Bible plainly does not state.

You are attempting to define something because God did not define it for you.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yes I see that as well.

I have done some research on these trained responses, it is rather impressive how the same debate tactics are employed over and over again.

Excellent observation

 

[Rufus]

I would say that fools reject what they understand. (Rom. 1) Men understood the deity and power of God but rejected the knowledge,

Men reject the things they DON'T LOVE, such as the Truth (2Thess 2:10). Conversely, they embrace the Darkness that they themselves are (Eph 5:8) and which they love because their deeds are evil (Jn 3:19) and for these reasons the Darkness did not comprehend the Light (Jn 1:5).

 

[Mem]

So God is sovereign in all matters but salvation? He can intervene as He pleases to save a child, but not intervene to save anyone else?
Answer the question I posed and see if you don't answer your question. But from scripture in Romans 10 we find God involving Himself in salvation by sending preachers as He has prescribed the inclusion of His word as a part of salvation.

God is sovereign in removing all the inhibitors of salvation, without exception other than the free will to come, and learn of Him (Whom Is Salvation). And inherent with the privilege to choose rightly, is the freedom to (go against His counsel) and choose wrongly. And I do not limit God's reach to that of missionaries, although they would provide a "more accurate" understanding of salvation.

 

[MerSee]

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 

[Cameron143]

Actually, the rest is my understanding of what you wrote and the comparison you made in the context of the discussion.

Assuming God sovereignly chooses to bring us, or allow us to come into existence - how is this the same as sovereignly commandeering the will of one already in existence?

In the first example, we have no existence and no will. In the second example, we have existence and will and are in spiritual death (which is existence and not inexistence (sorry for the double negative).

How are these the same?

I'm listening, but your logic, if there is any, escapes me.

I haven't used the word yet, and will rather use force oneself, but how does one force oneself on the nonexistent? I'd hope you'd agree that one can force oneself on the existing.

Again, your choice of words exhibits your bias. I never said God commandeers the will. I explicitly said men do the choosing.
The disagreement isn't over choice. It's over the fallen condition of man. What is man actually capable of?
So, all those people who lived and died without ever hearing about Jesus, what do you make of them?

 

[Rufus]

Repentance is not something one does after believing. Repentance is what one does in response to hearing (akuO) God speak. It is turning away from what one has been trusting in and turning toward Jesus Christ and God to listen/pay attention (akuO) to Him, so that one can believe what one hears. Jesus and John said, "Repent and believe" not "Believe and repent."

Wow! You never cease to surprise. So, here you do pay close attention (and rightly so) of the order of words or phrases. But elsewhere, not so much? How about this passage:

John 11:26
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? "
NASB

Do you believe this?

 

[MerSee]

Again, your choice of words exhibits your bias. I never said God commandeers the will. I explicitly said men do the choosing.
The disagreement isn't over choice. It's over the fallen condition of man. What is man actually capable of?
So, all those people who lived and died without ever hearing about Jesus, what do you make of them?

God give man the grace to repent of their sins.